True Crime Talk: A New Open Thread For Madeleine McCann: Six Months Later
Lynn
· 1 year ago
Oh no its going to take me ages to understand this new site, too many words!!!
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Steve said its intuitive.
Go t top and choose "Oldest" and then "Threaded" and then it all makes sense. You can reply to individual posts - in which case your reply is indented, or you can post a new topic (at the top) in which it is not indented.
Maggie
· 1 year ago
John: Read Spudgun's article and it's an excellent review of the case so far.
Jose: 'Private' detective's indeed!
So the McCann's did indeed leave the children alone on more than one occasion as was witnessed by Bridget O'Donnell. There are many good points in this article, as long as the reader ignores the obvious bias.
"He "had a squint and sweated slightly," said Ms O'Donnell. "He was breathless, perhaps a little excited... He reminded me of a boy in my class who was bullied."
As I said on the other thread I find this kind of thing quite yuk!
I see I have 2 points!
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
Hey john, I'm following you! You have a forum stalker!
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
This place is confusing, the post seem to repeat and then jump around. How do you know I'm not following you pdg? Like a panto - "he's behind you!"
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Oh I get it you can sort by oldest, newest or best.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
or hottest darling...
stevehuff
· 1 year ago
Actually, it should be intuitive. Comments diverting to the right like this are all responding to another comment. In this case, the thread began with your comment ending with "I see I have 2 points."
The next comment, if it is meant for all readers, should not be placed here by clicking "reply" to another commentator, rather it should be entered in the comment box at the bottom of the blog entry.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
It makes sense now Steve, thnaks. Sometimes 'intuitive' doesn't come naturally to me :)
Jose
· 1 year ago
My Christmas wish is that the Foreign Office will give its agreement to perform the interviews requested by the Portuguese Authorities as quick as possible. I hope that among these persons there is someone who can help the Police to establish the truth about the disappeareance of Madeleine McCann. I also wish that the parents of Madeleine McCann will fully cooperate with the Leicestershire Police and since they said that they are doing everything they can to find Madeleine, I dont see why they will remain silent..
Gem
· 1 year ago
Jose I am giving you a point for wishfull thinking and hopeless optimism
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Just seen this update from the ever readable Beachy:
"I have not been following the Omagh trial on a daily basis (10 months!!!???) and therefore cannot speak to every issue that was addressed there. However, there are some things that were said by the judge and printed by the press today that must be addressed. A few comments on what I have read and heard in the media:
(1) The judge said: "The absence of an agreed protocol for the validation of scientific techniques prior to their being admitted in court is entirely unsatisfactory. Judges are not well placed to determine scientific validity without input from scientists. We recommend that one of the first tasks of the Forensic Science Advisory Council be to develop a “gate-keeping” test for expert evidence. This should be done in partnership with judges, scientists and other key players in the criminal justice system, and should build on the US Daubert test."
What he is talking about is a U.S. Supreme Court case, Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals, in which the U.S. Supreme Court established a more stringent test for admissibility of expert testimony than had previously been used in U.S. federal (as opposed to state) courts. What he seems to have overlooked or misunderstood includes the following:
(a) The Daubert ruling was issued in a case involving a civil lawsuit over damages from a drug, Bendectin, that had supposedly caused harm to the unborn babies of pregnant women who took it. IT DID NOT INVOLVE A CRIMINAL CASE. The case revolved around the role of judges in the U.S. federal courts acting as "gatekeepers" in deciding whether to admit and how much weight to give to the testimony of expert witnesses; one of the main purposes was to give judges guidance because civil cases in U.S. courts had degenerated into a battle of expert witnesses that judges were sometimes ill-qualified to evaluate.
Lots of luck to the Forensic Science Advisory Council in developing a "gate keeping" test for expert testimony; 14 years after the initial Daubert ruling, courts in the U.S. are still struggling as to how to incorporate Daubert into criminal practice, as long-accepted sources of evidence such as ballistics tests on weapons and even EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY do not meet the Daubert test. (Think about it: How can eyewitness testimony be scientifically verified? And yet, how could the courts of any country function without it?) The judge can try to inflict the Daubert standard on the UK in criminal cases if he wishes, and perhaps the police and prosecutorial agencies will buy into that, but AT PRESENT COURTS IN ONLY 11 OF THE 50 STATES IN THE UNITED STATES REQUIRE THAT THE DAUBERT TEST BE USED IN CRIMINAL CASES. (The others use some version of a less stringent standard based on relevancy.)
(b) The Daubert ruling occurred in 1993. It has since been modified by other Supreme Court cases, including one known as "Daubert II" in which the most persuasive factor in evaluating expert testimony is supposed to be WHETHER THE EXPERT HAD CONDUCTED RESEARCH INDEPENDENT OF THE LITIGATION OR WHETHER THE EXPERT'S OPINIONS WERE DEVELOPED EXPRESSLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF TESTIFYING. In other words, is what we have on our hands here a real expert who has done considerable scientific research on this subject, or just a hired gun who, for a price, is willing to get up on the stand and give us his opinion?
I do not think there is any question whatsoever that the testimony of Dr. Peter Gill of FSS would meet the test of Daubert II. He is the person who first figured out how to do low copy number DNA analysis and has published peer-reviewed scientific papers on it. Based on what I have read, in my opinion, the PROSECUTION witnesses in the Omagh trial came much closer to meeting the Daubert II test than the defence witnesses.
(2) I was always concerned about one aspect of the DNA evidence used in the Omagh case: The low copy number analysis was run only twice, which was probably thought at the time to be all that was necessary, but subsequent research has shown that running the test three times is optimal. It is my understanding that LCN/DNA tests are now routinely run three times, and I expect that this has already been done in the Madeleine McCann case.
(3) The judge said that that LCN has only been adopted for evidential purposes in two other countries in the world, the Netherlands and New Zealand. I don't know what he means by "adopted for evidential purposes." It is a FACT (as Lucian might say, LOL) that LCN DNA analysis has been successfully used in the courts of New Zealand, the Netherlands, the United States, the UK, Australia, and Sweden. I do not know how he can have omitted Sweden, as some of the most high-profile cases that used LCN/DNA analysis have occurred there. One involved the conviction of the man who knifed Swedish Foreign Minister Anna Lindh in 2003. Another case involved the 2005 successful prosecution of a man who had raped and murdered two children in the 1980s. In Australia, LCN/DNA analysis was crucial in obtaining a conviction in the Peter Falconio murder case. In all these cases, verdicts have stood up on appeal.
Whilst it is true that to date only one person has been convicted in the U.S. in a case in which LCN/DNA analysis was the primary source of evidence (Jauquin Byrd, convicted of murder in Pennsylvania in 2007), his case has stood up on appeal, and there are many others "in the pipeline." In fact, one state in the U.S. has passed a law requiring that LCN/DNA analysis be performed on all weapons recovered in connection with serious felonies (murder, rape), and several other states are considering such legislation.
(4) I was under the impression throughout the Omagh case that a huge negative for the prosecution was that two witnesses from the police seem to have lied about how the evidence was collected. That alone could be sufficient reason for a not-guilty verdict, but it says nothing whatsoever about the validity of LCN/DNA.
This is my opinion: All the brouhaha surrounding the subject today to the contrary, I should not expect that LCN/DNA analysis will be outlawed or declared inadmissible in the courts of the UK. As the process becomes more widely available, I should expect that it will also come to be used in more countries. Any time science advances, there are always sceptics. One should not allow scepticism to impede scientific progress, but neither should an exciting new scientific discovery be allowed to proceed pell-mell without proper safeguards. I should not be surprised if what comes out of the ACPO review and other oversight activities is a set of guidelines requiring that before LCN/DNA analysis is admitted in court, the samples should be run three times, as well as a specific set of guidelines for gathering such evidence, and that is all to the good.
There is no reason that the decision in Omagh should preclude the use of LCN/DNA evidence in the Madeleine McCann case."
Hope she is right!
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Where is everyone tonight?
Reader
· 1 year ago
I agree with your conclusion.
With regard to DNA evidence and low copy number analysis, the most important factor (for me) is validation. In order to establish that a result is a true result, a validation study is first carried out to document how the study proceeds, how the study is interpreted and to ensure that the result of such study are reproducible, reliable and correctly interpreted. I therefore see no reason why this technique should be excluded from future cases?
metal guru
· 1 year ago
Lizbee, thanks for the link to beachy. Very interesting stuff. But remember, whatever about the analysis of the DNA LCN etc in the Omagh case, there is some problem with the gathering of evidence by the PSNI in the first place. I wish I had the link, but there was a major spat between Nuala O'Loan (Police Ombudsman for NI) and Ronnie Flanagan (Chief of PSNI at the time) not long after the atrocity. Furthermore in my opinion, the case was decided by ONE judge and NO jury. This to me seems odd. The judge is left with the sole decision, and I would not like to be him! Anyway, onwards and upwards as they say, Keep the faith! MG
Dee
· 1 year ago
Thanks Liz, I love Beachy too. Stupid question, when you see "bump" on the forum, what does that mean?
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
It means that you bring the thread forward because you want people to read it. It will appear on the main page near the top because there's been a recent comment i.e. the bump.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Hi All, Dee, I think it means that it gets bumped up the list so it appears first, that's what I worked out anyhoo! John, Didn't see the vid (on long call!), not sure if I fancied watching it anyway, was it really bad? Metal Guru, It looks like the DNA evidence will still be used as investigation is Ptgse and IMO there will be more to come about such evidence as you say one Judge can't decide!
halfway down the page if you want to see it. It wasn't as upsetting as I thought it might be. Just another weird thing - if you believe then then it would be moving - if you don't then it sets alarm bells ringing.
Jose
· 1 year ago
An interview of Rogério Alves in the Spanish newspaper ABC, December 15: Rogério Alves, Portuguese Lawyer of the McCanns: "The parents still deny any involvement".
Alves came to Spain to collect an award of the council of the Spanish Bar where he has given an interview to ABC, yesterday.
- This Morning the Spanish private eye agency, hired by the McCanns, said that they know where the kidnappers of Madeleine are and they will give news of Madeleine before Christmas.
- I am not aware of this statements except for what you are saying. You should ask to the Spanish agency.
- If a Portuguese child had disappeared in England, would we a similar case like the one of Madeleine? Don't you think that it wasn't the British press which has made it to become something special giving to it a nationalistic tinge?
- There is no criticism to the Portuguese authorities. The disappearance of a child is something difficult to investigate, in Portugal, in England, in Spain, in any part of the world. What has happened is that through the disappearance there was the help given to the McCanns to try to find their daughter with economics means and so on. When other children disappear, there is no such possibilities. However, as a lawyer of this case, these circumstances are beyond my control.
- What do you think that the McCanns hired a private eye agency from Barcelona?
- Anything that is legal and that the parents think that could help to find their daughter, is acceptable for me.
- Could you tell me what is the character of the parents of Madeleine, Kate and Gerry? Are they cold? They don't want to show their feelings?
- I don't speak about my clients. However by the law I have to contest that it tarnishes their honor.
- This is precisely why I ask it. Why do they have this image of coldness?
- Yes. I understand the question, but understand me if I don't tell you more. For me, they are two persons that I knew and they are two human beings like any others.
- What do you think that the Justice of Portugal has been formally treated as suspicious?
- If the Police has seen that there is a clue that could incriminate, they had to proceed in this form. But let me clarify. A suspect in any process is not an a accused. We hope that the suspicions are not going to be confirmed. They are still claiming that they have nothing to do with the disappearance of their daughter.
- Was it the blood of Madeleine in the car of the McCanns?
- The inquiry is secret. The only thing that it could be said is that the parents continue to deny to be involved. They continue to maintain that it has been an abduction.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Sunday Express says that the FBI are going to analyse footage of men lurking nearby caught on CCTV cameras. This is new according to this newspaper.
Hello John, so one part of the express article points towards the possibility of an abduction...three men, one of them resembling jane tanners drawing....???
and the other part about the barn could be connected to the phone call between gerry and o' brien, the towel, the renault .... Two completely different directions - or not?
Dee
· 1 year ago
Two different directions top part from CM no doubt? Given the situation the tape certainly should be looked at, but the description to me sounded like the same situation as G. & J., just a couple acquant. stopping to chat.
Second part is much more interesting and why haven't other papers picked-up on this?
Jose
· 1 year ago
Diario de Noticias:
The Pj has re-requestioned an employee of the Ocean Club
The employee has been the first to see Kate after Maddie vanished.
The PJ has returned to hear for the third time, since the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Praia da Luz, the first employee of the Ocean Club that arrived when the Mother of the toddler was screaming from the veranda of the apartment: "They have taken her!". This waiter is considered as a crucial witness for the investigation, reports the DN.
The employee has been questioned two times, three weeks ago, in the PJ of Portimão. The Police has informed him that they will eventually return to the charge to ask more clarification. But, according to what is known, this person had nothing more to add, he had merely repeated what he had already said. The detectives insist on the happenings of the dinner, especially in the conversations and postures of the McCanns, in addition to the alleged displacements of the same in the apartment where Maddie and her twin siblings were sleeping.
The employee continues to ensure to be false that the parents of the toddler had gone to check their children each half hour as it has been reported initially to the PJ. Kate stood up from the table around 22h00 and she went to the apartment and it was at this moment that she raised the alarm from the veranda. The testimony of the employee will be one of the trumps of the PJ to clarify the contradictions of the McCanns and their friends, who were spending their holidays together, in the future interviews, in England, as a consequence of the Letters Rogatory that are being translated.
Yesterday the McCanns' spokesman Clarence Mitchell furious denied the claims. He said: "This is all lies. Kate has consistently and categorically absolutely denied that she said that on the veranda.
"But in the evening she may have said it at some stage as a general remark, but she did not run out with this phrase.
"Whoever this guy is and if he is saying this, he is either making it up or he is mistaken.
"Kate, Gerry and their friends told the truth. They will continue to maintain their stories, because it is the truth. Whatever this guy is saying, we reject it, it is not true."
Sorry about that I was having trouble with the link it worked perfectly before I posted it but then collapsed once posted? but this one should work :)
Dee
· 1 year ago
I found it Liz.
Dee
· 1 year ago
That is interesting do you remember which thread, I would like to read more? That is creepy, one child looks certainly a lot larger. Thanks Liz.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Sorry Lizbee what are we supposed to see looking through the cover?
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Through the cover you can see Sean on the left as we look at the picture of Gerry pushing the pushchair. On the right it is supposed to be Amelie but the child is way too big to be Amelie, look at the length of the legs and arms compared to her brother and we know the twins are to all intents and pusposes the same height and build. It's always possible that either a) there's a strange trick of seat position and poor image or b) that ot is Ella O'B in the pushchair. Although the article was about Gerry walking with the twins.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Daily Mail: Confession of Michaela Walczuch:
She says: "I have answered everything the police asked me. They know everything so what right do these 'detectives' have to do this to me?
"They used us. They had to find something, someone, and that someone was me."
Michaela recalls: "On May 5 [when she was allegedly 'spotted' with a child in a blanket] I spent the morning cleaning my house, then I went to the hairdressers and in the evening I had a meal with two friends and Rob [Murat].
"On June 15, when I was supposed to be in Morocco, I went to see my lawyer and then had lunch with Rob and his lawyer. After that I went to the bank."
It has also been insinuated that Michaela lied about her whereabouts on the night Maddie disappeared.
She told police she had been at a meeting at her church in Lagos but a congregation member said Michaela had been cast out of the church last year.
At the time, Michaela was living with her husband, although they were separated, and was also friends with Robert, breaking church rules.
Michaela says: "I was set aside from the main congregation last year but I was brought back in March and was at a meeting that night with my daughter. There can be about 100 people there at any one time.
"It's entirely possible that someone didn't see me there but at the same time there are also many people that did.
"The worst part is people putting me in this, knowing I have nothing to do with it. They have no feelings, no heart. They are completely empty.
"I don't know if it is the McCanns or Metodo 3, I don't know who it is, but one way or another they are trying to put me in there.
"It makes me sad and it makes me angry. I have nothing but I am still a better person with a higher standard than all that bunch of people. I will not be used and abused.
"I've had enough of this vile game that others are playing. Others that are free to earn money, to walk around, to have a life. What about my life?"
She adds: "It's just like a film. You have the goodies and the baddies. It's as though one side is being supported and the other is not. These people I've never met accuse me of being in places I've never been, doing things I've never done.
"I didn't spend my whole life trying to be a good and happy person for people to come like rats from a hole accusing me of things I've never done."
Michaela describes the "sickness" she felt when the claimed sightings were made public.
"When Robert called me to tell me that there was a story about these sightings I went into town and I just saw my face on the front of all the papers. I felt sick.
"I wondered, if I was on the other side, if I didn't know me, if I didn't know that I am innocent, what would I think?
"Would I think I had something to do with it? I just wanted to go all around the town screaming, 'It wasn't me.'" She described her ordeal as a "stupid, disgusting soap opera that has no end".
Michaela's words may seem harsh, given that a little girl is still missing, but then she has spent the past seven months standing by helplessly as her life has unravelled before her eyes.
She recalls how, on Monday, May 14, about ten police officers descended on her apartment in Alagoas, the village next to Praia da Luz where the McCanns were staying.
She says: "It was about 7.30am and I was still asleep when I heard the buzzer going again and again. When I opened the door they shone a big bright light in my face and then a group of men came flooding past me.
"Next thing I remember I was in the kitchen and one of them was sitting there with a piece of paper telling me it was a search warrant."
The police confiscated her mobile phone, her laptop and her daughter's computer and then took her to the police station in Portimao ten miles away. She arrived at 9.30am and didn't leave until 1.30am the following morning.
Michaela says: "It was terrifying - all the time answering these questions, knowing you are telling the truth and knowing it doesn't make any difference.
"When I finally got home I had these voices in my head, pictures of the men in my mind. It felt as if I had been raped. They take your innermost feelings away. Nobody has any respect. Nobody cares how you feel. I hadn't been physically raped but still that is how it felt."
But if her first interrogation was bad, things were about to get an awful lot worse. She was questioned twice more. The last time, she says, was particularly brutal.
"That day I was really treated like a piece of dirt," she whispers.
"All I wanted to do was get out of there and make sure my daughter was OK. When they did finally let me go I drove as fast as I could to her school. She came out of the gate and I couldn't speak because I had to keep the tears back.
"I wanted to be like all the other parents, having that normal joy of picking their children up from school but I couldn't.
"She already had the feeling that she didn't want to lose her mummy and I really thought too that I didn't want to lose my baby, my treasure.
"I know I didn't do anything wrong but I've realised you can be an innocent person in this world and they can do anything they want to you - and they will.
"I lost my faith not just in justice but in the whole system and everyone that supports it."
Two weeks ago the police finally returned Michaela's computers to her. The police have never questioned her - or Robert - again, though he remains a suspect.
Yet the consequences of that time have been painful and far-reaching. A devout Jehovah's Witness, Michaela says it is only her faith that has saved her in the darker moments.
She adds: "Nothing made sense any more. I have a lot of respect for life but there was a feeling of not wanting to live, that life wasn't bringing me any joy.
"But I couldn't do that to my daughter. She needs me more than ever now. As a result of all this she is seeing a child psychologist.
"Every time she sees a police car, she ducks her head. She associates this situation with the police. When I take her to school she holds me and says, 'They're not taking you again.' She can't sleep unless she's next to me because she has nightmares."
The financial implications of the investigation have also been devastating.
The daughter of a German hotelier and a Portuguese waitress, Michaela moved from Frankfurt to the Algarve to live with her grandmother when she was 12 after both parents died of cancer.
When three-year-old Maddie went missing she and Robert were setting up an internet-based property company. She says they can no longer afford to advertise it and that she can't get other work.
Prospective employers tell her, she says, that they "have clients to think about". The one thing that has survived is her close friendship with Robert. The pair met two-and-a-half years ago when they worked for an estate agency in Lagos.
At the time Michaela was still living with her ex-husband, Luis Antonio, a swimming-pool specialist, although the couple had separated two years earlier. They are now divorced.
Michaela says: "We have become very close. A negative thing has become a positive."
And she adds: "His family are like a second family to me. And that is another thing: Robert's mother is 71. She doesn't deserve this. This is destroying her. I'm worried about her health."
And that is the nub of it. Even when talking about the positive things in her life, the conversation inevitably turns to Maddie and the investigation. Michaela is, however, determined that she will, one day, put this all behind her.
She says: "I didn't ask for any of this. I'm not forced to accept what other people seem to want to do with my life. How dare people accuse me, a normal human being - and the mother of a child - for the mistakes of others.
"Somebody comes on holiday and I am left to pick up the pieces they left. I'm not going to be put down by them. I'm not going to be trampled on. Sooner or later, even if it takes some time, I will get a job and I will forget all this."
However, Michaela remains reluctant to make any judgment on the McCanns or the case as it stands now.
She says: "I pray every day that that little child is OK. As a mum I feel for her. She is a child, she is alone and she does not deserve to suffer because of something adults have done.
"But if I'm honest I'm sick and tired of all this. It should be so easy. I don't have anything to do with this. I just want people to leave me alone. I just want my life back."
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Well in my view that sounds like a totally genuine interview - you can feel a real person speaking with vulnerability and authenticity. You have to compare it to all the other tosh we have been forced to read!
Dee
· 1 year ago
I am very impressed with Michaela's courage and strength. You go girl!
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
i am very glad that Michaela did this interview. The Mccanns only see themselves as victims in this. Maybe now they will realise that their negligence has turned other people into victims too. Many children are suffering from their healthy "lack of paranoia": Madeleine, obviously, her brother and sister, Michaela Walczuchs' daughter, Robert Murats daughter and so on...
Jose
· 1 year ago
In the website SosMaddie, it is reported that a Spanish journalist has been intimidated and threatened by Método 3 for having published an article of opinion about the McCann case alluding to the lack of reaction of the parents to the false hopes created by Francisco Marco.
Dee
· 1 year ago
Wow that it is awful, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I hope the UK papers pick-up on this and maybe it will put pressure on the fund to fire them, but of course they plan to have Maddy home for the holidays...tic tock, tic tock.
Andrea
· 1 year ago
The credit point system is very distracting! And John has turned into a cat, that is even more distracting! I want my haloscan back! There were no pictures, no reward points, no followers, just an innocent place to be!
lizbee
· 1 year ago
They are really terrible in the first instance, massively over priced in the second and slightly twisted as a subject matter in the third - unless the artist is using his 'skill' to cash in, he isn't the first to do this and won't be the last. Guaranteed publicity - if you can sleep easy on a night after youve done it!
Jose
· 1 year ago
This is not the first artist to pain the McCanns. Do you remember that painting of José Maria Cano representing the McCanns in their Renault Scénic brought by Vanessa Branson.
The style of the two artists are completely different. The prices are also different for £22,000 for the Renault Scénic, £4,300 for each painting of Enrique Marty. At that time Clarence Mitchell didnt do any outrageous comment about the artist José Mario Cano for making money. The paintings of Enrique Marty are not a true representation of the reality. His style is different from the style of Jose Maria Cano who is more conform to the norm. It's a satirical style. His painting of Madeleine reminds me the unflattering sarcastic paintings of Francisco Goya the family of Charles IV and also Las Meninas of Velazquez. I like these ugly paintings of Enrique Marty because each of them turns into derision these pictures.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
While I can understand them getting upset, at the same time they are now famous for losing a child, an 'icon' of a kind of parenting, and so I feel they are legitimate subjects for art, particularly post-modern art. Ok it is pretty soon after the event but this is what happens when you attract publicity. You cannot control what results from it...
Jose
· 1 year ago
Enrique Marty is in fact doing publicity to Madeleine. This comforts me to believe that Clarence Mitchell is not a good spin doctor. He should have said: we appreciate this painter, Enrique Marty, and his paintings that are helping us to maintain a high profile campaign to find Madeleine and we encourage all the artists to express themselves about Madeleine. Instead of saying: “This appears to be another disgusting attempt to make money out of their plight.”
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
I rather like them...
Lizbee
· 1 year ago
Whoa?? help.... what's going on?
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Go to the top and choose sort by "Oldest" and threaded. If you post by clicking reply then it should be offset to the right. If you want to start a new subject then you use the box at the top.
Don't panic and remain calm.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
I know this is really gossipy and pointless but apparently this where the T9 met up.
Looks ok to me and would like to be invited to next meet.
stanley
· 1 year ago
Still trying to get used to this i think I am replying to John?? Sorry John have blown up picture of hotel. Large sign on door No Hawkers,Canvasers, Jehovas Witnesses or Spurs supporters. If you do go light trousers are compulsory and no swinging (from the ceiling)!
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
I'll stay at the Swingers Arms - just down the road instead then.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
USA Version of the 19 Reasons of No Abduction thread:
19 REASONS FOR DOUBTING THAT MADELEINE WAS 'ABDUCTED'
compiled by Tony Bennett, 11 December 2007
1. UNLIKELIHOOD OF ‘STRANGER ABDUCTION’
Because the statistics on alleged 'stranger' abductions from a person's home show that a member of the 'abducted' child's family is usually the perpetrator, and the child is usually dead. Something like 90% of all claimed 'stranger abductions' from a house turn out to be intra-family murder. There have been two high profile cases just in the last few weeks - 'Baby Grace' found battered and decomposing in a plastic box on sand dunes near Galveston, and the 'dead baby in the attic'. Both were claimed abductions - hoaxes
2. REFUSING TO ANSWER PJ QUESTIONS
The McCanns didn’t answer the PJ's questions – those are the not actions of innocent parents, who would bend over backwards to assist the police in every way they could
3. ANXIETY ABOUT ‘PHONE CALLS BEING MONITORED
The McCanns expressing anxiety about their ’phone calls and e-mails being intercepted. What innocent parent would worry about that?
4. COCEALING RECORDS OF THEIR MOBILE PHONE CALLS
Their refusal to supply their mobile phone bills to the PJ
5. IGNORING ADVICE NOT TO HIGHLIGHT MADELEINE’S EYE DEFECT
Their ignoring the clearest possible PJ advice not to highlight Madeleine's eye defect - the coloboma (iris defect) - if Madeleine were still alive, it would have put Madeleine at much greater risk of death. Their conduct suggests they knew she was already dead. They deliberately ignored the advice not to make Madeleine so recognisable that the abductors (if she was abducted) would kill her. All the posters emphasising the coloboma, and then the announcement of all the sightings and claims of being right on the kidnappers' trail…all made Madeleine more at risk
6. IMPOSSIBILITY OF THE ANDUCTION HAPPENING AS CLAIMED
The sheer impossibility of the abduction – so many questions, e.g. why did the abductor wait for 35 minutes after the McCanns sauntered down to the Tapas bar, was he hiding behind the door as Gerry McCann checked the children (that's what he claims), did he really walk in through patio doors, then climb out through the window and shutters with Madeleine? And so on
7. CHANGING STORIES OF WHAT THE ABDUCTOR LOOKED LIKE
Jane Tanner’s changed story of what the abductor looked like. Initially 'his head was egg-shaped, he had some short hair, and was carrying a bundle, maybe a blanket', then, a full 3 weeks later - to make sure that the PJ issued a description - 'I definitely saw him carrying a girl in pink pyjamas'. Then after *six* months we get an artist's impression of the abductor and are now told: 'Head not egg-shaped, hair long ,sleek, black and shiny, abductor not white but 'swarthy and Mediterranean' etc.
8. THE PARENTS’ ABSOLUTE INSISTENCE THAT ABDUCTION WAS THE ONLY EXPLANATION FOR MADELEINE GOING MISSING
The parents' immediate and insistent cry of abduction - excluding all other possibilities
9. CLAIMING THE ABDUCTOR WAS A MAN ALLEGEDLY SEEN BY JANE TANNER
Gerry McCann proceeding, after 3 weeks, to issue a description of the abductor based *solely* on Jane Tanner’s dubious sighting - against PJ advice and only after Gordon Brown ’phoned PJ
10. THE ‘TAPAS 9’ PACT OF SILENCE
The 'Pact of Silence' or 'Circle' of the 'Tapas 9' - the notorious agreement between them all to keep silent about the events of that night
11. CHANGES OF STORY
Changes of story. Example – Day 1: "Shutters jemmied open, windows open, patio doors locked, abductor must have forced his way in". Days 2 and 3: PJ and Mark Warners say: "No way shutters and window were forced from outside". Several days later, McCanns: "Oh, we left the patio doors open, so abductor must have walked in through the patio doors and then climbed out of the window and opened the shutters and climbed out of the window with Madeleine"
12. HIRING DUBIOUS PRIVATE INVESTIGATORS
Hiring dubious British private investigation agency and dubious Spanish 'detective agency' Metodo 3 at cost of several hundred thousand pounds - no obvious benefit or results
13. HIRING BRITAIN’S TOP EXTRADITION LAEWYER
Rushing to hire U.K.'s top extradition lawyer – Michael Caplan Q.C. (who represented General Pinochet) - the moment they became formal suspects
14. PUBLICLY AGRREING TO TAKE A LIE DETECTOR TEST – THEN REFUSING
Publicly agreeing to take a lie detector test and then refusing
15. STRANGE EXCUSED FOR BLOOD, DNA AND THE ‘SMELL OF DEATH’
The extraordinary excuses offered by the McCanns in response to the forensic findings of blood, DNA, cadaverine (smell of death) etc., including these six examples: (a) I took Cuddle Cat to work - that's why the smell of death is on Cuddle Cat (b) I dealt with 6 corpses in the last fortnight at work, that's why the smell of death is on my clothes (c) we'll get on to lawyers in Ireland/America who say these cadaver dogs' evidence is useless (d) the DNA was the children's dirty nappies in the boot (e) the ‘smell of death’ was rotting meat that Gerry was taking to the dump (f) the blood in the flat (found underneath the tiles in the children's bedroom) might have been from Madeleine grazing her leg when she boarded the plane, or maybe a nosebleed.
16. NOT STAYING CLOSE TO THE TWINS WHEN MADELEINE DISAPPEARED
Leaving the twins at the creche within days of Madeleine disappearing - and spending as much time as possible visiting the Pope, the White House etc. and campaigning - no parents whose child had truly been 'abducted by a stranger' would let those twins out of their sight, they would cling to the precious two they had left
17. REFUSING A URINE TEST ON THE TWINS
The McCanns, both doctors, refused urine tests for their 2-year-old twins, though later admitting that they ‘could have been drugged by the abductor. They then waited 5 months before going to an agency to carry out ‘independent’ tests. The results of those tests have never been publicly disclosed and it is not known what drugs the agency test for
18. ONLY ANSWERING PRESS QUESTIONS GIVEN TO THEM AT LEAST 2 HOURS INADVANCE
The McCanns stipulating that for all interviews, the press had to present all questions to them at least two 2 hours in advance of the interview, and that they would only answer these questions and no others
19. THE MCCANNS ATTEMPT TO CLAIM THAT THE ABDUCTOR DRUGGED THE CHILDREN
The McCanns explaining away the fact that the twins didn’t wake up - amidst all the shouting when the alarm was raised about Madeleine - by hinting that they must have been drugged by the abductor. They came up with this theory when being filmed by close family friend Jon Corner in August - after leaks from the Portuguese police suggesting that the children had been sedated
TO BE CONTINUED
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Addition: Also found this point
20. Despite claiming to believe an abduction had taken place, the McCanns NOT seeking details from Jane Tanner about what she saw when she saw the "abductor" walking off with Maddy (allegedly). They did not ask he for details for a couple of days or more because they were "too busy" - according to David James Smith in the Sunday Times (and he seems to have privileged access to their thoughts)! Can anyone here really credit that? Surely one would immediately speak to one's close friend and quiz her on all the details. You would do that immediately - the same night, the same hour. And there is no evidence of attmepts to organise a search in the direction indicated by JT's "sighting".
Jose
· 1 year ago
Excellent post, Lizbee.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Thanks, it actually took a bit of searching as it's the USA version of a link to a UK version (no longer available) from M forum where a member requested it and started me on the hunt. Anyway up we got there in the end, thanks to U.S. poster - bjr... and I must admit i quite like being a bit of a cyber sleuth - If only!
Maggie
· 1 year ago
Thanks. Good to be back in the fold. Liz, excellent post.
Hope you all had a happy new year.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Maggie - you made it WB :) Yes a great New Year thanks x
Lynn
· 1 year ago
Wb Maggie, Happy New Year to you.
I noticed they say it wasn't Murat, interesting after all this time they are still sure especially with spin - they haven't been swayed!!!
I do think again the PJ's lack of conscience, not reinterviewing, doing telephone interview etc will instill beliefs of incompetence.
Who knows with this case I just hope she isn't turning over in her grave!!(sorry but if it were me I think I would be)
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Yes I admit I was very derogatory about the PJ initially but now I think, after looking into this a lot more deeply, that the FO were a monkey on their backs from the outset plus if you check back to when exactly they were called - at least an hour after Kate's announcement - by which time half the blooming resort had been through the appt.. But I still would have thought they should have 'held' the appt. as a crime scene and placed more importance on the parents testimonies from the outset, then again hindsight is a wonderful thing ;)
The PJ has had the most perplexing case, with FO & worlds media on their backs, I do believe they know exactly what's what and have to tread very carefully and I urge all support for them in their duty - it's still their case - lets support them in finding the truth and bringing justice & closure (of some kind) to this case.
Dee
· 1 year ago
Yes, we have to remember the good doctors lapse in their educated knowledge on DNA, allowing the scene to be disturbed and washing cuddle cat. But I read a report, I think it was Brunts saying that the McCann who owned the place was worried about 6 weeks re-imbursement as the PJ had tied the place up and it couldn't be rented out. They did allow Gerry back in for the suitcase, shove & bucket though, remember that famous picture...that is no more to be found? If I hadn't have saw that picture myself, I wouldn't have believed it...wish I could remember the bag (bad joke).
Dee
· 1 year ago
Hey Maggie...so glad you didn't leave us, I always enjoyed your posts!
Maggie
· 1 year ago
Aw thanks Dee. I agree with what you say about the trashing of the crime scene - scarcely believable given that the parents are highly trained doctors. I think they used their position and power to intimidate the local police and PJ from the start. They are still doing it. The most awful quote from the McCann's is the 'Show us the body and prove we killed her'. It has been sticking in my mind for days now and I go the Gazeta Digital site and Paulo has a cracking blog update on it.
My goodness there's a chilly feel to the reports about the McCanns in the English press now. I can't get over Fox News reports.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
I thought you might want to read a genuine post from Martin Brunt re: the wierd hoax letter:
'There are dark forces acting against me over the Madeleine McCann case and I cannot speak freely here, so I am resigning from Sky News. Apparently.
This is what someone, masquerading as me, posted on the internet last night until it was removed.
"I have the truth about this sad case, I know what happened on that tragic night," is whatI am supposed to have written. If only.
More chillingly, a former colleague who also discovered "the truth" is said to be dead and I am in fear of my life.
Phew.
I don't think I know any more in 2008 than I knew in 2007, except there are new "witnesses" who saw Robert Murat outside the apartment the night Madeleine disappeared - when he insists he was at home with his mum.
None of them, of course, know him and all have seen his picture a hundred times on telly and in the newspapers.
None of those who do know him and who were out searching that night has said he was there.
In fact, after he was questioned and gave police his alibi, those searchers were all re-interviewed by the police.
They were asked directly if they saw him - and all said they didn't.
Written by Martin, January 02, 2008'
This is the latest update on Sky website blogs page.
Lynn
· 1 year ago
There ya go, thanks Liz, MB clearly sees the latest "witnesses" in the same light we do.
I still think they may have been seeing Payne
Jose
· 1 year ago
Do you think that Fiona Payne did not recognize her husband?
I think that David Payne looks more to bundleman than to Robert Man.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Maybe she finds it hard to recognise her husband in the dark (?)
Jose
· 1 year ago
I thought it was another joke! Well, when Marting Brunt writes that all the persons, that have said to have seen Robert Murat, did all said that they didnt after having been asked directly, did he include the Tapas 3 Rachael, Fiona and Russel?
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
I suppose its obvious really, but I never thought of it, if Robert Murat lives in PDL then half the town will know him and his mother. With all the people searching the locals would know if Murat was there. So that makes the T3's claims (and the the sisters, barristers and anyone else - who didn't know him) pretty thin. Although the sightings were patently rubbish anyway this really squashes all of them. Even Martin Brunt of the McCann sympathy school seems to have smelt a very big rat!
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Paulo Reis had this to say in his blogspot Gazeta Digital:
"The SKY news crime correspondent makes clear, in his blog, 'A Life of Crime' that the several McCann friends that claim to have seen Robert Murat near the Ocean Club the night Madeleine disappeared are not telling the truth. Martin Brunt refers that dozens of local residents from PDL who helped in the search for Madeleine and that know Murat for many years were all questioned by police and told that they didn't see him.'
I feel a gathering of momentum here ;)
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
A certain pack of cards is collapsing (maybe).
Dee
· 1 year ago
I hope so, how horrifyingly scary and financially devastating to be accused of something you didn't do (if true of course), when you were just trying to be "helpful". Stanley I am glad you stayed away from light colored pants, and there were no blonde little girls anywhere near you .
Lynn
· 1 year ago
I do think they probably saw Payne rather than Murat as john points out most locals would know Murat and they were out and about looking so they would know it was him, I think it was definately Payne they saw. With regards to any reference made to what the Tapas lot saw Jose I disregard it as I cannot believe anything any of them say at the moment. i don't know all so complex isnt it but i do think i would maybe say murat was payne if i was on holiday and saw someone who looked similar, easy to do!!!!
stanley
· 1 year ago
At last I have found my friends! I was on a 2 week holiday in Lanzarote and when I got back I could not find you?! I still do not understand the format but I am sure will get used to it. I am now a complete McCann hater, the misery this pair are causing is endless. In my hotel no-one left their children in a creche and they all took them in to dinner. I love children. However the modern British child has no manners (especially at table) and no respect for the English tongue. As most of their parents grunted at them rather than verbalise this is not totally surprising. I avoided wearing light coloured trousers and took no tennis lessons, so whats new with you lot? I shall read with relish. Have the 3 Amigos mentioned an Easter deadline yet?
Dee
· 1 year ago
Stanley, Stanley I am so glad you are back, I missed your wit and conviction! So do you think the Tapas will be interviewed & will K&G answer the questions?
Jose
· 1 year ago
Welcome come back Stanley. There is no Easter deadline mentioned by the 3 Amigos.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Hey Stanley welcome back - it hasn't been the same without you!
AReasonableMan
· 1 year ago
Hallo. Just checking in, not been posting mainly because I've been otherwise engaged and nothing much new for me to say. I still think there is something wrong with the McCanns line of "we know nothing, she was abducted". It seems still to be the case that if the Portuguese police have evidence that Madeleien was dead in or around the apartment, it is hard to see how the parents are not involved.
The situation seems to have become formal and even diplomatic in relation to the question still to be asked of the witnesses now in the UK. It wll be interesting to see where these lead.
And regarding this thread, actually I think the new format seems to work better than the old ones, at least once people get the hang of it.
Thanks to those translating into English (Jose especially) and everyone else who is keeping me informed and linked to other sources - the case remains fascinating, even if I have nothing to add for the time being.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Welcome back ARM.
Lynn
· 1 year ago
Nice to see you are back ARM I for one enjoy your input. With regards to the newly named and shamed suspect, it seems this is the pattern of this case. Pop in a name and let's see how we go. This man, DJ Shifty!!!!(Dear me you really couldn't make this up could you??????????) who "groomed" a 12 year old and is interested in pre-teens is yes, a disgrace, but surely he doesn't meet the criteria for abducting a 3 year old. I am by no means an expert but I presume someone who wants to have sex with a minor isn't looking to abduct a toddler. I presume that there are segments of interest, to presume because he wanted to have sex with a 12year old (sickening) doesn't mean he has an "attraction" to 3 or 4 year olds. I am no expert but again I presume all pedophiles have a certain "requirement" for want of a better word and his doesn't seem to be such a young age.
It truly is like some absurd movie and Met 3 will keep searching, CM will keep bullshitting and the McCanns will keep turning over everystone until no stone is unturned, but then what????? More lives ruined, more suspects, more name-calling, more absurdity, more abuse of Madeleines memory. It would be nice if this case remained open in search of Madeleine yet I know eventually resources shall run dry. The PJ alone must be spending a fortune on this case, with help from somewhere I presume!!!!
The odd thing about this case is that no-one has ever stated any cold hard facts apart from Madeleine went missing, even the PJ have chopped and changed their beliefs, the only person who really knows is the one responsible and Madeleine and I think more than likely it will be the case that this will remain an unsolved mystery for many years to come.
With regards to the McCanns innocence or guilt, one thing does make me ponder. Most people who commit a crime are seen as the "helper" in these situations, going over the top and out of their way to help, hence I think the link with Murat there, that the police thought he was covering his tracks. Yet with the McCanns they too are almost going out of their way to find Madeleine, something obviously every parent would do BUT is it because they have something to hide, has it just spiralled out of their control, something they never realised would happen or is it just simply they have a good publicist!!!!
The one thing at least we can see is that people are being put up left right and centre and seen as suspects yet the only guilty party to date, in my eyes, are the parents who left their children alone.
Lynn x
Dee
· 1 year ago
A source within the Policia Judiciaria confirmed: “All the paedophiles who were in Portugal at the time of the disappearance have now been acquitted.” http://tinyurl.com/2cce3z
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Lynn, the expert in the Sky News video posted by Jose said exactly that pedophiles do not normally target toddlers. This guy DJ Shifty is clearly the latest stool pigeon - though reading about him one has trouble caring about what may happen to him (although its all alleged of course).
I read on the M forum someone saying what I had suggested ages ago - that basically the McCanns did not actually leave their kids in the way that has been suggested but that they had to say that they did in order to make the abduction thing stack up. I would suggest that maybe JT and R O'B were actually looking after all the kids. Remember the seven kids in one apartment which surfaced after the Maddie 129 book (I think). So even the one thing we think we can pin on them is in my view up for dispute.
Dee
· 1 year ago
But John you have to keep in mind what the staff has said, "that they did this every night and only the men checked" and Mrs. Fenn that Maddie has cried for about 2 hours on a previous night calling for "her Daddy". Then their was a MW spokeswoman who said something to the effect there was a complaint and the McCanns were specifically asked to get a sitter. But the last night, they may have all been in the same room, maybe not at K&G though, it has been suggested there was a cleanup happening, perhaps by JT. I don't think anything can be ruled in or out in this crazy case.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Hi All, I do hope everyone had a lovely Christmas... we did :)
I've just been reviewing all the recent posts, thanks Jose for the Sky footage as I'd missed it - seems very objective summation to me though.
Dee, I'd not seen the footage of that interview either and the point you made above is exactly right... Gerry is pleased about the confusion between fact and fiction!!! beggars belief and so stands out in the interview particularly his slight laugh at the very thought. And he wonders why people are judging him/them?
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
But also one waiter has said no-one left the table except Kate (?). Did they really monitor the group so carefully to know that no-one was baby sitting? There is something fishy about the whole deal - and if you watch the Sky News videos they make a point about how quiet, dark, shadowy the place was a night. And they really still say they thought it was safe! No way! Anyone who even thought of leaving their kids in that flat would pretty soon realise they had made a mistake as soon as they got to the Tapas bar. So yes we can say - stupid stupid doctors! ("we are responsible parents!") ... or we can start to puzzle why did they leave them????...
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Hi John, My understanding re: Waiter & Tapas monitoring was that after the other couple (tennis buddies of Gerry's) in the bar left they were the only group there, therefore the waiters would have been hanging around and noticed preety much everything. However as i am imagining the scenario now I find myself wondering about the bar quiz and the lady who was called over to join the group. As you say it just doesn't hang together... but there i am back to the timeline and square one again!
Thanks Jose - both those links are very good. I've seen spudgun before - in fact I posted it at the top of this thread but I hadn't read the blackwatch before. Its heavy going but worth the effort. How extraordinary that all this effort goes into controlling, influencing, creating public opinion. One almost gets the sense that these people think they can commit the perfect crime by making it unacceptable that we should think they are innocent. That is truly frightening.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Dear all,
I would like to wish you all a very happy Christmas. I never thought that we would still be at such an impasse after all this time and am amazed by all the developments we have witnessed since last May. I started following the case because of my personal connection with Portugal and because of what I thought was the most terrible news coverage particularly by BBC 24 and Sky News. I watched everyday hoping for good news about Madeleine but was appalled by the ill informed, clumsy and sometimes downright xenophobic comments. I wandered on to the internet to see if I could get early news and to see what other people were saying. I have never done this before and I was struck by the extraordinary active global community of commentators I found. Most of the forums though contained a lot of odd and biased people but I found genuinely sympathetic and concerned people on Steve's site so I stayed here.
(Happy Christmas Steve and thanks for keeping this going.) Commentators came and went and we all had to rest occasionally because it was quite emotionally fraught. As the parents possible guilt came into view things got very heavy and many dropped out because they couldn't cope with how things were going. More recently the media barrage has made me grow more and more cynical so now I don't really believe anything I am told. This may be healthy but it seems to have stripped away some of the empathy I used to have with the people concerned. Some people have taken this to the extreme, questioning why the latest video shows Madeleine receiving the pink bag she used on holiday, are there hidden messages to the T7? and so on, but I find a lot of this kind of crazy. I think if you look too hard you will start to see what you want. I don't know if the McCanns were somehow involved in the disappearance of their daughter - none of us do. But even if they were, I still have compassion for them as human beings because either way they must, inevitably, suffer. I do not feel that I like them very much - but all I have seen is the videos - but I do feel sad for them. I think they neglected their children but I think this was thoughtlessness not malevolence and I can't see the point now in them being charged for neglect. The way they have conducted themselves with the use of M3, the accusations against the PJ, the strange information management, I don't like at all. It seems unnatural and inhuman. If now they want to raise money through books, films and so on - well its not so much that but what it is used for. Is it to try to find Madeleine or is it to pay for their legal team? I know most people who lose someone ruin themselves in the effort to find them but these people seem to think they are entitled to maintain their life style. I don't want vengeance but I would like to see the truth come out - not for me but for the memory of Madeleine.
PS. I would like to also encourage pinkdrummergirl to come back - I feel guilty for joking about her astrological beliefs - I will restrain my schoolboy humour in future. I look forward to the return of Stanley, arm, billie and loads of others.
Cheers everyone.
Dee
· 1 year ago
John when I read this post earlier on the forum I thought about your post (not just the backpack) but different postings you have made in the past. This one touch really touch me, but it is so sad (but true) and didn't want to post it, but I thought you would appreciate it somehow. It ended up being one of those posts that sticks in your mind and I went back for it to post, but wow is it ever hard to go back even say 5 hours later, even if it was a topic (memo to me). http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=33079
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Thanks Dee - I woke up in the middle of the night to eat cornflakes and read this. Its a great post - an appeal to the McCanns to own up and tell the truth - for Madeleine's sake and as importantly for their own.
Gem
· 1 year ago
Well I've uploaded a pic to my profile I don't care if I lose points for it being offensive, I find the whole issue of using the Pope as a photo shoot opportunity offensive.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
I've just read every page of the '19 reasons' link and it does get up to 26 by the end!
By the way I'm not replying now and I bet i don't get any up and down arrows....
Gem
· 1 year ago
I love the way you refer to "the forum" Surely, THIS is THE forum,...... not that other tabloid one.. ..
lizbee
· 1 year ago
No, sorry Gem I am referring to the Mirror forum... people on here generally just put 'the forum' I used to be more explicit and put Mirror or M forum at least... but lately just put forum as a few people from here bob in there for a look see at the latest news or topic and that's what everyone knows it as... It's actually okay if you're thick skinned and choose what you care to look at.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
By okay I mean in terms of useful information. But you do have to be very careful as there seem to be some commenters on there with some very serious and heavy attitudes and it's very cliquey. Most just view but I do post comments occasionally usually when I want to know something or make a particular point, actually I'm usually ignored as I'm not a regular. But if there's a question I want to ask I'd ask in a thread Beachy was on for example... and get a good non-biased answer.
Gem
· 1 year ago
Yep, "Beachy is the bestest" . Can't figure out Lucien Deville and his constant breaking news that never is..what nationality is he? Empathy has an interesting idea about the Mccanns having been "set up" for a greater cause ...to crack an international child trafficking ring..Hence the lack of remorse and tears plus the "campaign behaviour" of the parents and supporters etc..
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
LuciAnDeVille is french canadian. LeeAnneDeVette is canadian too. ( I have wondered if they are one and the same)
Gem
· 1 year ago
Thankyou Pinkdrummergirl, just wondering about some of the expressions he uses like " Gerry, its wife and Mr Clancy;;" Yes there is worldwide interest in this case,
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
Yes it is quite gladiatorial. Some of the pro's are awful... and so are some of the anti's. But it can be very funny. Personally I love LeeAnneDevette who is a hilarious pro, with her rapier wit, along with Poorhorse. For the anti's: LucienDeville who always shouts and misspells people's names, Redsquare, Beachy and Spudgun are always intelligent. Amongst the nutters there are some real gems...
lizbee
· 1 year ago
pdg I totally agree, personally I look out for Spudgun, Beachy and Redsquare myself. If i haven't much time but feel a need to catch up I have been known to profile their comments and read back from there... cuts out all the bs, bullying and mindless scrapping... however some of the ripostes ARE funnny, I just hope no-one takes it toooo... seriously and gets hurt :)
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
Better go to bed now, going to borough market in the morning to pick up some goodies for christmas, nite x
There's a thread on the forum '19 reasons for doubting abductor theory' that's been posted from a USA forum, so some people may have seen this already. Yes it does cover old ground but it makes interesting reading anyway. Personally I could add a few more reasons on the end myself!
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Snap I was just reading that Lizbee - what reasons would you add?
lizbee
· 1 year ago
I'd add: Vowing never to leave Ptgl without Maddie then flying out asap after being made arguidos.
The early reports of Maddie's comfort blanket that she 'always slept with and wouldn't be without' disappears into the ether and is replaced by the more attractive CC which coincidentally was a gift from Jon C the Godfather and broadcaster of panorama program.
The strange & changing story of Gerry's last check... nothing unusual/abductor in appt. at the time/looking over Maddie as she slept...
Gem
· 1 year ago
I read that cuddlecat is a heat bead cushion that you can warm in the microwave and put behind your sore neck on long plane trips. Was it really Maddie's favourite toy?? Is it a toy at all? The point being.. why the focus on the "more attractive cuddlecat"..? Why is Kate using CC as a photo prop, why was it important that she was seen clutching it and sniffing it and photographed with it?? My point is that this photo focus on CC seems contrived and fake. Yes contirved, why tho??.. to make the mum seem more ...what is the word...tragic??? Is the Mum an actor in a play?
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Gem I don't believe that cuddle cat was Maddie's favourite toy, there are no photo's of her with CC. My kids favourite toys (of the moment) always appear in their photo's... CC was a symbol of ? something, not quite sure what?
It's freaky the use of cc.
Gem
· 1 year ago
The red flag for me back in Sep was the "perfectly innocent explanations" for the smells in the car boot and on the jeans and toy. Was just re reading this on Sep editions of The Telegraph and Sunday Mirror Admittedly,..the comments about rotting meat, nappies and jeans worn to work whilst checking dead bodies were attributed to "friends" How on earth did these comments get published?? Didn't Clarrie realise how absurd these innocent explanations sounded?? If you are innocent , why come up with "perfectly innocent explanations" at all?? Surely you are better off sayin nothing, or "I don't know". I am just amazed that if Clarrie's job is damage limitation, that such stupid explanations keep emerging either from his mouth or from friends, relatives and employees (M3) Doesn't he have any control over what The Mcaans, their clan and M3 say? What is his job exactly, to take the piss?? (sorry for the slang..)
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Yes I know Gem... the jeans and dead bodies statement was yet another 'innocent explanation' that's so way over there you question whether or not you heard/read it right the first time. So bizarre that they were released into the press! Unless it was deliberate in order to raise suspicions? I wish we had Stanley on this thread again as his snippets from 'Journo - land' via his son were really interesting.
Dee
· 1 year ago
Regarding the point system: This is just a stupid observation, I happened to notice trying to catch up after being away for a day, it appears someone is deleting points from the regulars LOL!!! Our best researcher Jose is in the lead for - points, John I think your #2 LOL!!! I wonder what Stanley's score would be?? Never fear, I join you in the negative list as well. AS IF, we would change opinions for points...too funny, just had to mention. Please give me a neg. 3 for this one... & keep up the good work.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
I gave you a point for that observation on points.
Points? What's the point?
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
My 'clout' is minus 30 - no-one gives a damn what I think! Nor should they.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
oh my god. I had like 34 points a couple of hours ago and now i'm minus. Bastards! It's a conspiracy by team Mccannists! I was saving up those points to buy christmas presents... (edited to remove split infinitive)
Dee
· 1 year ago
Just checking backed in...you & John....OGM...too funny!!!! Jose, will you quit translating and posting...(haha)? Jose, like the rest of us want the truth, I trust I can speak for you in this regard Jose? We have never cared to express our opinions for point and why would we do this now?
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
sob. I'm still minus... Wheres Stanley? I think he can't get in anymore. My bookmark takes me back to haloscan now, so only way I can get in is by going to crimeblog.us homepage, going down to story where Steve says he's gonna stick to this new format (or was it the other way round) and click on the disqus link. Ok, i'm going to go to Haloscan and leave directions for him and others...a trail of pixels...
Dee
· 1 year ago
Just popping back in John...just too funny to not to comment on! Love you buddy!
Is Mrs Webster the mysterious Tapas One who contradicts the statements of the Tapas 7?
The Dialy Mirror reports that Mrs Webster, the mum of Fiona Payne, has told police she did not see Murat.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Thanks Jose. You are the most helpful poster on here.
Quote from that article:
About he fact that Murat interpreted for the PJ on some interviews.
"Clarence Mitchell, the McCann's official spokesman, said: "It is a matter that our investigators are working to get to the bottom of.""
Yeah right, the dreaded M3 I suppose - what exactly are they working on then? I thought they were seeking Madeleine in Morocco or was it Spain, oh no Belgium and Malta that's it.
Jose
· 1 year ago
In fact their private detectives are also working for the defense of the McCanns.
I don't understand exactly what they would investigate about the fact that Murat was the translator of the PJ before he was made arguido. I suppose that their Portuguese lawyers would have access to the testimonies and also to the person who has done the translation. I don't see the need to investigate it at this stage of the inquiry. In the case of a trial, I also think that these witnesses would be called to the court to report what they said.
These detectives of Método 3 are clearly liers even if they have never said that she will return home before Christmas, their director, Francisco Marco said that he knew where Madeleine was. Everybody knows that's a big lie. They have no idea where Madeleine is.
Nevertheless, the McCanns are satisfied with them. Clarence Mitchell also. They are still paying these crooks. Now Clarence Mitchell tell us that they are investigating facts that are not clearly related with the search of Madeleine McCann. Are they really searching Madeleine McCann?
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
The thing that team Mccann seem to have gotten most annoyed about is the lack of privacy in Metodo3's investigation. One could argue that because the Mccanns are using the publics money to fund Metodo3, it is reasonable for the public to expect updates. Although Metodo's updates are ridiculous and treat us all as if we were stupid. As for Murat doing translations, clearly he was the best person to do that: a local resident who is fluent in English and Portuguese, experienced in interpretation for the police. How were they to know that he would become a suspect? Also if he interpreted for the interviews with the tapas 9, why didn't any of them say at the time something like " hang on a minute, you were there! lurking outside the apartment " (or whatever it is they are accusing him of). Did they just keep shtum? I did a bit of a family tree search on Murat. On one site there is an email from him(in 2002) saying to a woman researching the Murat name "If I can help in any way get in touch with me", giving his email address. This, I believe, backs up general reports saying that he is a super helpful guy...which unfortunately has backfired this time.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
The latest from the forum is that 'Independant Consultant' and one of 'Britain's leading specialists in the Prevention of sexual crime and abuse' Ray Wyre has this to say about the case: (edited) 'I have worked with men who abduct and kill children I have some knowledge of this type of crime. I have been asked by the press many times to provide a profile, to assess whether or not the McCanns have killed the children. How does one even begin to answer the questions if one does not have access to the police intelligence and investigation . To comment on profiling can be irresponsible and part of the problem. I have no idea as to the accuracy of anything. One often thinks when you see a headline . “Madeline seen in car at garage just after the abduction” as to why someone who has abducted a child had not thought before the abduction to fill up with petrol before they grabbed Madeline and why go into a high risk situation. Infact most of the headlines i see do not take into consideration the words “think offender”. However for those police officers and pyschologists in Englnad that may have had access to the enquiry and for the forensic units to have information but to then follow portugese guidelines on secrecy is a problem. Even if forensics who have a context for the DNA do not believe that the DNA in the boot of the car is proof of the McCanns killing their child they are unable to say. Instead we specualte, Why would they, if they were offenders, remove a child that had been hidden so well that no one during the earlier intensive searches suddenly bring the body out of hiding and hide it somewhere else with all of the risks involved? “think offender*' Link: http://tinyurl.com/2mnzcx
Beachy's response from M.forum: 'Aside from the fact that Mr. Wrye seems badly in need of some lessons in grammar, spelling, and punctuation, there is a basic fallacy in his argument. There are inherent differences in legal systems, and each country chooses what best suits its customs, traditions, and precedents. No system is perfect; all have their strong points, as well as their drawbacks. (edited) So it is with police secrecy during an investigation. There is nothing wrong with that system per se. It has protected the reputation of many an individual who turned out to be innocent. The difficulty occurs when the media of a country with one system attempts to impose its values on an investigation being performed in a country with a different set of rules. The Portuguese are not going to change their laws as a result of this case, nor should they.' Link: http://tinyurl.com/3dzfxs
I'm with Beachy on this one, IMO RW stops this side of imperialism with his views on bringing national and local policing all in line. But he is right about speculation and why it starts and gathers speed - and I don't know what the answer is but I wouldn't be suggesting in a public fora that an entire country changes it's whole policing system in light of this case.
Chanel
· 1 year ago
Hey everyone, nice to see you all! I had no internet for a few days and a few days before that I had a feeling the blog was about to change. Can't say I love it this way, just getting used to it. Going up & down over & over is no fun. Hi Dee! I missed you too! Everyone here, hope you all are having a fine holiday season.
So what is this about a pic w/Amelie & Sean and what is the significance? And where the heck is it lol? I dont have a profile pic here yet, just dropped in as soon as the net came back and have nothing to contribute yet, very sorry. But the news is flat except for the M3 fiascos, continuous claims. As the essayist, Hunt was it, tx Jose, said it does keep Madeleine's name in the news. But as she is showing even by writing the essay it also dulls us to that news to have a 'sighting' every 10 days or so or a new suspect line from M3.
Hmmm, this blog isnt goig to hold many comments I see, so there is also a lot of arrow clicking. Ah well we are blessed to have it at all! Back tonite!! *
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Hi Chanel I posted the comment about the pic, I think if you click on my profile you can pick up the link from there, go to the tinyurl link as the others kep crashing, let me know if you don't get it... Liz :)
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Hi Dee & John, Dee I've only just found your reply to the wierd 'big' Amelie sat beside sean pic. I found it by clicking on my comments to see if there were any replies... I've been out a bit lately so not been posting as much. I'm hoping this new thread will grow on me as there are some good extra's to it, but i do miss not being able to click on a button that says 'view all in sequential order' . Steve is this possible in this version of the thread as it wiuld be good if it was....? Thanks :)
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Lizbee - go to top and click sort post "oldest' and view post "flat" and everything is then in date order just like the old one.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Got it now... thanks John, I just didn't see the other pages, doh!
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Incidentally John, I've just found your comment re: photo and have replied.:)
lizbee
· 1 year ago
And why are you a pussycat now John? lol
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
Thats his familiar or demon...
lizbee
· 1 year ago
John, Is this right did this apparition appear on your profile without you clicking a mouse? Spooky :)
Jose
· 1 year ago
SoSMaddie reports a declaration of Rogério Alves, Portuguese Lawyer of the McCanns, made in the Spanish newspaper El Mundo where he attacks all the press saying that almost everything that has been published about the Madeleine's case is untrue because "it is prejudicial to my clients", Kate and Gerry.
The lawyer, who assumes the presidency of the Portuguese Bar Association until January, recognize that the legal situation of his clients will not change: "the suspects will remain with this status until the end of the inquiry".
"In Portugal, we can judge an homicide even if there is no corpse - on the contrary of the United Kingdom - that has already happen", says Rogério Alves, adding that it wasn't for that reason that the McCanns came back home. The lawyer assumes that the case is reaching the end (in three months) and the couple "will return to Portugal if it is requested by the Portuguese Police".
Jose
· 1 year ago
There is a comment of Duarte Levy about this article:
Mr Levy why do not you comment of the recent Times article with plenty of new information regarding the eve Madeleine went missing?
Or is it something you are not allowed to say in this democratic world ?
++ Hello. One of the reasons why I don’t make any comments on the work of my colleague David is that I don’t know his sources… I can confirm several aspects of his article but not all. I know and I respect his work as a journalist and writer. I kwon the books he wrote and I suppose that he will wrote a book about the McCann case… if that is the case, I will probably wait to read more about his opinions about this case. Duarte Levy++
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
yes i think that is the truth of the matter. this david james smith is positioning himself to get the book deal, the inside story from the Mccanns.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
That's great form Beachy and Hawkeye again, astute as ever.
I found this thread on the forum yesterday that was repeated again on a different thread today so I had another look at it. Honestly I couldn't for the life of me see what some could see very clearly despite looking and looking at the pictures and even when I did finally see it (Yes this is a bit like those 'magic eye' pictures when everyone else can see the subliminal picture hidden in the pattern but not matter how much you squint, close one eye, open your eyes really, really wide etc. you just can't - until you finally do, then it's so obvious it's all you can see).
See what you see in the picture in the link, taken on May 8th of Gerry pushing the twins in the buggy - look through the cover.
Copy post by Beachy & Hawkeyes1 quote="beachy"] ... If the fibres found on the towel can be identified as coming from the particular Renault Scenic hired by the McCanns, the next obvious step would be analysing the bloodstains on the towel to see if they are compatible with Madeleine's blood type, and possibly with her DNA (which needs doing in any event and probably is already being worked on). If you get a match, in my opinion, this would be as good as finding her DNA in the hire car - perhaps better. If one can establish that the fibres on the towel came from the McCanns' hire car and that the blood on the towel is compatible with Madeleine's blood type even if DNA could not be extracted from it, this would probably still be admissible circumstantial evidence. It would also be a very, very interesting thing to question a suspect or potential witness about during a re-interview.[/quote]
This is what I have gleaned from the Sunday Express: Portuguese sources say forensic scientists used a substance called Luminol to look for blood deposits and found three sites on the edges of the towel. They tested the blood deposits to see if there was a match with Madeleine's DNA. Although the samples were not good quality, the scientists were able to do what is called low copy analysis, which showed there was "moderate” support to suggest the blood deposits matched Madeleine's blood.
Close analysis of the towel also revealed fibres which were not made of the towel material, and these fragments have been microscopically examined against fibres found in the boot of the Renault Scenic. Portuguese police sources say there was "strong support" that the fibres found on the towel matched fibres from the boot of the car. They are obviously pursuing this line of research further.
While the DNA evidence from the blood found on the towel may not be conclusive, but, in combination with a match from the fibre fragments with the fibres found previously in the Renault, this could be pretty damning for the McCanns! Then match this with all of the other evidence gathered so far, such as the earlier DNA evidence found in the car and apartment, the telephone calls, the 14 text messages, the inconsistencies in the McCann and Tapas 7 testimony (especially on timelines), and even some of the more blatant lies (such as the jemmied shutters), and it is obvious that the PJ are methodically building their case.
The next round of 100 questions that the PJ will be asking of the McCanns and friends will certainly reflect the new evidence found, and I am much more optimistic these days that justice will win out in the long run. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wouldn't that just make my day!!!!
In his book, the Guilt of the McCanns, Catarino claims that the Gonçalo Amaral talked with the District Attorney the night before Kate was interviewed by Police on September 7. They discussed remanding her in custody but could not agree on the offense she should be accused of.
Clarence Mitchell, dismissed the book as “another shameful attempt to make money out of the situation”.
He said: “I would refer any fair-minded person to the fact that neither Kate nor Gerry
have been charged with any offense.
“There is one good reason for that – there is no evidence because they are not involved in any shape or form in their daughter’s abduction.”
Clarence, you don't if there is an evidence against Kate and Gerry. The reason why they are not in jail is only because there is no evidence that an intentional homicide crime has been committed but the Police could have evidences to sustain that Madeleine has been killed accidentally and disposed of her body, in that case there is no preventive jail.
Hernani Carvalho, writer of Maddie 129, appeared to the Portuguese television to say that the the couple had been given “scandalously privileged treatment” over the disappearance of daughter Madeleine.
He added added, according to the Daily Express: “If they were Portuguese they would be in jail by now. There are lots of people up in arms with the scandalously privileged treatment that was given to the McCanns. Any Portuguese couple in these circumstances would have been jailed a long time ago.”
Clarence Mitchell yesterday brushed off Mr Carvalho’s comments:
“That’s his point of view – we disagree,” he said. “Kate and Gerry have not been given any special treatment.” He insisted police had no evidence to charge the couple with committing any criminal offense.
Personally, I don't think that Kate and Gerry could be in jail for giving up their children because there is the necessity to prove that they have the intention to put their children in danger. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean that there is no evidence that Kate and Gerry have committed a criminal offense as for example of being involved in the disappearance of their daughter, Madeleine McCann. It's not because they were not charged that the evidences are not there. I will advise Clarence Mitchell to wait the end of the inquiry to make any judgment about the evidences collected by the Police.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Jose - I have given you a point for your work in posting all these extracts. Thanks for doing it.
I think it is very likely that Amaral wanted to jail Kate as at the time things were shaping up this way. I would guess the lawyers told him he had to get a confession to do this. That explains the prolonged interview - was it 11 or 13 hours?
Given that Justine McGuiness has admitted to breaching security by texting Team McCann during this interview - it is also possible that they were persuading her by text not to confess - and then we have the plea bargaining that never happened incident. So all in all I think it was probably touch and go whether they charged her then.
CM is only saying what eh always says.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
By the way I have turned into a cat over-night.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
Thats a good point John about them encouraging her by text. However that surely isnt usual to allow suspects to keep their mobiles... they are normally only allowed one phone call in the movies... Also difficult to put pressure on someone if they are getting support from outside.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Correio da Manhã:
Private detectives promise to rescue the toddler by Christmas We already know who is the group that took Maddie
The director of the private eyes agency, Método 3, says he already knows "the group who has taken Madeleine" from the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, on the night of May 3, "in principle, we are dealing with pedophiles".
Francisco Marco just don't know yet if the child is alive but he hopes that "she will return home by Christmas". He ensures that he has "evidences about the displacements" of this group and the next objective will be to rescue Maddie "from north Africa or from the Iberian Peninsula".
Meanwhile, a British tourist who knew the McCanns during their holidays in Praia da Luz reports to the press that she admires the McCanns' couple for having left the children alone at home. She explained that she "admired them for not being paranoids parents" - while Bridget O'Donnell would not do the same for their own children because their apartment "was too far" away from the restaurant where they had dinner.
This tourist was the producer of the popular BBC series 'Crimewatch' and she is the wife of Jeremy Wilkins, also a television producer who played tennis with Gerry during their holidays. Bridget said that she "always believed that Kate was innocent" of not being involved in the possible death of her daughter - because she reminds of having seen her near the swimming pool, some hours before the crime, very "calm and still".
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
what an amazing coincidence! Producer of Crimewatch no less...
Reader
· 1 year ago
pinkdrummergirl said
what an amazing coincidence! Producer of Crimewatch no less...
Speaking of coincidences, this case has been compared to that of Natalee Holloway who vanished when shewas 18.
Has anyone seen the "two o'clock defect in Natalee's right eye in the fox news photo? Another coincidence .....
Andrea
· 1 year ago
Now I really don t understand this system. Jose posted just 5 minutes ago - it was a reply to John mentioning the paintings earlier, it doesnt appear as the newest post, so would do you ever see it, Steve?
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
to see the newest post you have to click on 'flat' not threaded... I've got loads of points! yippee
Jose
· 1 year ago
What's your secret to win all these points?
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
Pure charisma mate!
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Steve, how do you know how many visitors are on line?
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Aww John your piccy is lovely and pdg - that's a good choice - love it x
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Obrigado beijinhos.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
thanks lizbee. Andrea's pretty hot too! In fact I think we have established that everybody contributing to this is pretty damn gorgeous ...
Andrea
· 1 year ago
oh thank you...why did John change into a cat now?
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Andrea - I have been eating these special biscuits and they have had a strange effect.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
I am posting this as much to practise on this new thing.
In the M Forum they have picked up on this strange phrase 'angular manifestation' as in:
"Kate's back and shoulders, her hands, her mouth had reshaped themselves into the angular-manifestation of a silent scream,” she said, reinforcing claims "
In that recent article. When I googled it I only found a reference to it in a physics site i.e.:
"Most recently, we have observed an angular manifestation of Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle where the observed spread in angular momentum is set by the..."
Apart from another dodgy site where I feared to tread.
In fact all the language in that article is very strange. Its as if someone is trying to write sylishly and failing. I wonder why.
John (Uk)
· 1 year ago
Some dreadful over priced paintings of Madeleine. Whatever next eh?
This paintings of Enrique Marty representing Madeleine McCann and his mother are presented at an exposition of the Spanish Llucià Hom gallery called the Ghostdick youtube. Enrique Marty represents in this exposition the manipulation and proliferation of images available on the web.
His paintings are pictures changed by his brush in a grotesc way. It's a reflection about the compulsive comsumption of images coming from the internet.
He presents a collection of icons, generally anonymous pictures that he has compiled in his work of investigation and web surfing where appears different topics: family albums, works of other artits, movies, and even the McCanns themselves.
Enrique Marty reflects on the nature of the web conceived as a huge storehouse of visual information, invinting us to enter into his work and to share and experiment his visions of this deformed icons.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Does my new piccy come up now?
stevehuff
· 1 year ago
It does. Is that you? Adorable pic! Mine's just scary :^p
lizbee
· 1 year ago
No it's not me Steve, but there are pics of me via my crap blog: liz--bees.blogspot.com I did try for ages to post a real pic but couldn't get the sizing right - I'm guessing yours is real 'cos it's on profile etc. x
Lizbee
· 1 year ago
Does anyone know how to do the little profile piccies?
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Lizbee - put your cursor on the ?pic and click on profile - you have to create an account but its just your email and a password then you can edit profile.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Thanks John, I think I've done it now?
Jose
· 1 year ago
I think that's Andrea who spoke about the possibility that Gerry and Kate were suffering of a personality disorder: the folie à deux.
In the interest of finding the truth, it's always a good idea to have the experts weigh in. We each bring our own particular area of expertise to the table but will not have the education and experience in other fields. And the jigsaw must have all the pieces to be complete.
So, in order to flesh out the picture I bring you now the thoughts of a friend of mine who just happens to be a well-trained psychiatrist with many years of experience in the law enforcement field. This person has worked directly with criminals. This is what she had to say. Mind you, this person has never interviewed/examined any of the subjects of this case -- these are just impressions. But after many years in the business and having seeing the same patterns over and over, I would say this individual's observations and opinions are worth not only reading but taking note of. So, with that disclaimer, this is what my friend had to saw about the McCanns after reading up on this case:
GERRY -- Gerry has narcissistic PD (personality disorder) with grandiose ideas, under the thumb though. Could be "folie à deux" or "folie simultanée" it comes in many degrees. E.g. A man points to the sky and says, "Look at that!" "Oh yes!" says another. "I can see it!" See what??! There's nothing there.
In that video, she is worried about where the next smack is coming from; she is not sure how she should respond = abuse. If that was the only video they could produce of her, it says it all!! I have 16 grandchildren and a video camera and editing suite, I do not have any pictures as disturbing as that one.
PREDICTION: But they will get away with it, In am sure, whats the point of putting them in prison now, their life is over now, better the ??? over their heads for the rest of their time on this earth, as they are now immortal. So is the child.
Lynn
· 1 year ago
I think that the woman who came forward to protest Kate and Gerry's innocence doesn't really have much respect off me for she stated "I admired the McCanns for leaving their children alone" EHHHHHHHH say no more!!!
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Jose - that's prety much a character assassination which seems to be based on very little information. I don't understand the bit about the video - ...worried about where the next smack is coming from??? I can't see that.
Lynn
· 1 year ago
The problem we have is that everyone is attacking Kate and Gerry for how they appear in public, stop and consider how you would react with camera's etc constantly in your face. Perhaps we would all be made to seem unemotional, remember the press manipulate everything, from articles to pictures to make their point. I do think the problem stems from the fact that the McCanns come across as unnatural, yet in this situation how natural can one be without losing control and they do seem to be very in control of everything.
I still read with disgust the almost cruel statements from the 3 Amigos - they, along with the rest of us know that Madeleine isn't in Morocco, with this much publicity we are all accepting that it would be too risky to keep Madeleine alive. Perhaps whilst the 3 Amigos are in Morocco they could rescue all those poor children used as "little maids" and do some use with the money they are clearly squandering.
On a personal level, I am very competitive so vote Lynn!!!!! I want the points lol
Lizbee
· 1 year ago
I agree about the three amigos 'I find their stories hurtful and unhelpful'
Andrea
· 1 year ago
I agree with you, John.
What I found interesting today is the discussion in the m-forum, if the guardian article tells more than it first seems, that it is to be read between the lines- the author hiding some serious suspicions in her seemingly flattering text.
Dee
· 1 year ago
I agree totally, as I went through the article picking at those weird point that ...stood out. Things in this article beg many questions, but lst of all why now?
lizbee
· 1 year ago
I can't understand why your comment did'nt come up in 'newest' list, every one elses seems too... sorry just exploring new system. Also there's a bit cut here from our posts as e.g.
stanley
· 1 year ago
Sorry this one has got me fooled. Tried newest but not coming in the right order. Steve am I being thick? Maybe you should not answer!
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Oldest works for me, Stanley.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
I'm going to repost the link to the article by Jeremy Wilkins partner, published today in the Guardian, as I believe it is worthy of discussion: http://tinyurl.com/293zpk
stanley
· 1 year ago
I have not commented for the past couple of days because when all the crap was going around about what Mr Ribeiro did or did not say it was pretty obvious he meant that arguido status had given the McCanns the green light to leave Portugal. I think it went something like this:
"Mrs McCann if you refuse to answer these questions we must suspect you of some wrongdoing. Therefor we would make you an arguido. Is that what you want?" "If you do that I shall piss off back to blighty." "But surely you want to help us find your daughter." "Speak to our lawyers." Or similar. Maybe someone From Team Mc could suggest an alternative?
What really brought me back was this latest farce of the divers. According to the Portuguese lawyer who is "funding" this (anyone care to bet on that one?) he received information from the underworld on 6th May that M had been abducted, raped and murdered and her body disposed of in this spot. Let us look at this logically. The underworld consists of career criminals it certainly does not include pedophiles. So much so that in jails throughout the world these sickos have to be kept in solitary confinement away from "decent" cons. The only way an abduction would come to the notice of the "underworld" would be if it were a professional gang of kidnappers stealing children to order. So are we to believe that amongst this gang was a pedo who raped M? Why would they murder her? This is if anything a further diversion but a very stupid one. It is one thing for K&G to claim this was a pedo chancer abduction, but to believe that this was a planned operation by a criminal gang is beyond even the wildest claims of their followers.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Stanley - your understanding of the inner working of the criminal mind does you credit.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
My report, and a few other comments from others added in: I arrived early to make sure of a seat towards the front. Then the speakers arrived. Clarence Mitchell and Justine McGuinness shook hands and didn't look like they had met before. Quite a lot of lone women in the audience but notably only one woman on the panel of speakers. Comment from another audience member: "I forgot to mention the most pathetic thing I saw at the event tonight. Shortly after Clarrie walked in and stood up front - at this point less than 8 feet from where I was sitting, some young Christian-looking type walked over to Clarrie and handed him an envelope. He asked Clarrie to give it to the McCann's. I knew there was money in the envelope - fairly thick maybe about 20-30 bills inside. The envelope looked clean and respected in a way some people treat an envelope with cash in it. I was close enough to read "Drs. Gerry and Kate McCann". Clarrie looked at the envelope, looked at me, then looked at the envelope again. When he later took the stage and had a seat, he placed the envelope in front of him and looked at it from time to time." Kelvin Mackenzie, Steve Hewlitt, the 'moderator', and Clarence Mitchell sat at the front table whilst the others sat in the front row. Kelvin starts speaking: This is the most significant story in my lifetime. There are only 2 known facts: 1) a child is missing 2) Her parents are the main suspects. Every other story about the disappearance of Maddie is a spin off of these two facts. Without finding the child this story will live in our lives forever. Uniquely this was a middle class child who was kidnapped. The Sun readership is mostly C1's and D2's. When I wrote a story sympathetic to the Mccanns I got the largest ever email bag between 8 and 10,000 emails. 99.9percent of them were against the McCanns. They said that the coverage was classist. There is some truth in that. Referring to the LSE audience Kelvin said an audience like this is at odds with the population. How a big story like this works in Britain: normally after 2/3 days journalists covering the case would have been brought together by police, off the record, and they would explain what had happened. The journalists would be given by and large 95% of the story. 5% would be held back. Newspapers would then run a wholly accurate story which would act as a warning in a dangerous situation and stop speculation Its now been 272 days since Madeleine has been missing. All there has been is one 3 minute conversation between the Portuguese police and a UK journalist. The stories don't come from the Portuguese police. Portuguese papers run opposing stories every other day. This is a problem for the McCanns. Everyone here is obsessed. Kelvin Mackenzie admits to being obsessed himself. When papers put the McCanns on the front page, there is a 2 to 3% rise in circulation. The recent story with Ashley Cole, there is a rise of 2-3 per cent for the first day, maybe the second. With the McCanns it's been that way for 9 months. Steve Hewlitt asks: " Why are readers so negative? " Kelvin" because of the neglect. Its a class war issue. Punishment is wanted. Its an incredible(good) idea to get a PR. They stop the parents from doorstepping, phonecalls etc. I believe that Gerry McCann has gone back to work. (Clarence nods but insists that Kate McCann has not gone back to work and has no intention of doing so). Ordinary people however don't associate PR with the truth. Now there are stories that Oprah and Barbara have offered all this money. Clarence: Thats not true by the way. The PR was necessary but there is a downside. People are suspicious. Sombody needs to help the Mccanns in the modern era. Justine and I are a buffer so that the McCanns can get on with their lives to a certain extent. I am trying to tell the truth. Arguido is less perjorative than the word suspect. By the way the McCanns did not phone the press before the police. There are appalling standards of journalism.Journalists are lazy and not checking the facts. Sloppy standards with newspapers. I was with the McCanns for a month as a govt advisor. Then they called me in to help them out. I am not suspicious of them. I wouldnt do this if I was. Briefing from the police mean that I am very happy to defend them. I'm not usually a person that supports causes. an average front page puts on 70 thousand copies when they lead with the McCanns. In todays word , with pressure to get broadcasting out, it means standards have slipped. The Uk press lifts material from the Portuguese press which then recycles the UK press. Its distorted. They should get a green award. Then an irish guy interrupts and says ' we've heard all this before, stop rambling on". He turns out to be from the Madeleines law campaign. Clarence apologizes. Steve Hewlitt asks some tough questions: this is media management ? The Morroccan sighting was untrue. Was it appropriate for this new drawing of a man to be described as a suspect in the manner of the police? Did the police have this info? Clarence: yes since May. And we asked Gail Cooper if the police had done a drawing of her description and she said no. So we commissioned one. Then Roger Graef [created Dispatches documentary, and a criminologist] After he did the documentary he realized there was nothing really to say, as there were no facts. People are talking about nothing, just unsubstantiated rumour. No sources to confirm anything. McCanns did not want to work on the documentary or approve of it until Madeleine is found. He tried to be amusing (failing miserably). He said that he was constantly being asked to comment on this story which has no substance to it. He was of the Its disgusting how everybody treats the McCanns school of thought. Really couldn't be bothered to listen to him. But he annoyed me when he said leaving your children alone when you are on holiday is perfectly normal and everybody does it. Then David Mills (Panorama producer who pulled out)gets up: He's another boring old male fart. He says "It raises issues about police procedure, forensic science in this country, and the British press. There are precedents in the US and there are many parallels between the Ramseys and the McCanns. He says something about the Ramseys being proved to be wholly innocent. (Don't think thats true is it?) Then a blonde woman sitting next to me catches me tutting and hands me a leaflet for the Madeleines law campaign. Next its Justine Mcguinness: She immediately comes across as more relevant than the two previous men. She says that the narrative of case is superficially easy to understand... this story plays to everybody's common fears. She says that the McCanns represent aspirational Britain. They've worked their way up from a working class background to 'media' careers ( everybody laughs at this freudian slip) . She corrects herself " medical' careers I mean. She admits that one editor she spoke to admitted that he changed how he covered the story based on the fact that the parents are doctors. They made decisions at the beginning: -to pool media access, no exclusives. -The experts advised them to use the media. -They made a decision to use electronic communications. And hits on websites had influenced editorial policy. Roy Greenslade: Everyone has a view. This story has gone in 4 phases: 1) initially- sympathy 2) skepticism, and its appropriate for journalists to adopt this tone. 3)Long period of suspicion 4) commercial cynicism. He asks Has the media gone too far? Yes Has the internet removed editorial limits? Yes Have the laws on defamation been breached- Yes , people unlike journalists dont care about defamation,thats the nature of gossip. Questions from audience start: What this the first missing child in the UK? no Was this the first missing child case that used a professional PR? probably. Clarence: the portuguese police don't engage with the media at all. When they went to the british police station and saw the media room, they were like, Whats this? Why you need this?(adopting slight portuguese accent). Next question from audience: Has Article 8 the right to privacy and article 10 (couldn't hear) from the Human rights legislation been breached? Didnt hear answer. Angela from Sky news: (dumb blonde who asked dumb blonde question) Was this story big because it was a slow news day? Kelvin: No. The story was huge in itself. Lady from Madeleines law said angry stuff but cant remember what. Evening standard journalist said something boring. Madeleines law lady: What about the fund ? these Private investigators. How much do they cost? Clarence;Cost of agency 50K? But they are actually costing 7 or 8k but the rest is for operational costs. Another lady: Whatever happened to the presumption of innocence? The woman next to me repeated Clarence Mitchells' claim of "knowing" Kate and Gerry are innocent. However, CM and the former Sun editor had said there was no real information - nothing came out of the police's mouths. She then asked him, based on the fact that there was no real information in the public domain, how does he know? Clarrie replied he knows because he believes Gerry and Kate. She pushed him and stated so if you know because you believe, then you BELIEVE they are innocent. Therefore you don't really know! Clarrie cowered and mumbled something about semantics, the girl sitting next to you got a nice little clapping for her effort and Clarrie was really humiliated.
Richard Peel Pr guy: Something about letting off balloons. Justine gets up and defends decision to let off balloons. I ask a question(nerves thundering through my ears): These men here and Clarence in the past have said thats its normal for British parents to leave their children alone when on holiday. This makes people furious. This sort of media is not helping the McCanns. I was frustrated with what I was reading in the press, it wasn't expressing my feelings and opinions, so I found the forums like the Daily Mirror which has been shut down (and Clarence says Yes we got that shut down) and now the 3arguidos. There are extreme opinions, both pro and anti. I'm a fence sitter who veers towards anti. I believe that these forums and online comments express a kind of collective gut feeling that something is amiss. I then go on to say, please let me say one more thing: there is no investigative journalism any more. One poster, ellibean, went out to Praia da luz and filmed the distance between the tapas bar and the apartment. No journalist did that. They are all too busy sitting in the bar and using their exes (expenses). Clarence nodded his agreement about lack of investigative journalism. Clarence Mitchell: I'm not a PR. I'm a journalist. I'm not putting a spin on it. There is an image problem.I'm not critisizing the police overtly. Steve Hewlitt: Is it appropriate for the family to be doing this?You are not the police. Question from the audience about fund and Justine McGuinness' wages. Justine gets up: I received 55thousand. Actually I was very generous to the McCanns. People have to earn a living. Woman from Madeleines law shouts" its about a missing child. How dare you? Justine: I worked 7 days a week. I have 50 voice mails. It was ovewhelming. Turning towards Clarence in plea for support: I'm sure it was for clarence too. Clarence pipes up and says" well i'm not being paid from the fund, i'm being paid by Brian Kennedy. (slightly smugly i might add) Then he says loudly: you want facts. These are the facts. The fund earnt 1.2 million from the website appeal. Even now kate and gerry are getting letters with small checks from small kids and old people. They are very grateful. Now the fund is down to 570k. Thats for private detectives and poster campaigns in spain Blonde madeleines law lady(find out her name is Debbie Butler) interrupts: I go to spain twice a week. I'm going tommorrow. I've never seen a poster there. Its all spin, its a coverup. Then Clarence says "it will be down to 346k by end of March. This is publicly donated money. The fund raising was forcefully raised by the madeleines law couple. Clarence was quite vociferous about there being no fraud, no spin. Nobody got a chance to ask about money for other kids. Clarence did concede that the Mccanns were lucky (lets face it being white middle class professionals with a beautiful kid my words not his) in their coverage and that the fact that say a black working class single mum in the same situation would not get the same support tells us more about the media than the McCanns. I got the feeling the attitude was more well done them for achieving this.( REmember they represent aspirational modern Britain and compassion for others probably doesn't form part of that - this is my opinion only) There was more but thats the bulk of it. I probably missed out stuff but there will be a pod cast. The madeleines law people handed out leaflets to people. Steve hewlitt came up and thanked me for my question which was nice. My impressions: that clarence actually believes what he is saying. That the other guys david mills and roger mcgraf know nothing and are not impartial. Justine Mcguinness was well humiliated and shown up for career building greedy guts. She is now the spokesperson for the libdems (oops). Well I wouldn't say the conference was a clarence triumph at all. Quite the opposite. He seemed to be pleading to be believed really. To be believed that he was doing this for all the right reasons and that he genuinely believed in the McCanns. I'm surprised by the press reports coming out: their quotes do not reflect the content of the conference in my opinion. Steve Hewlett certainly put Clarence on the spot. kelvin was to the point as always. So despite the most part of the panel being "pro" mccann, hard questions were asked. However they talked for an hour and we got to ask questions for less than an hour. So not many questions were asked. I had so much that I wanted to say it was hard to choose. I took a picture which i will post
AReasonableMan
· 1 year ago
Great report PDG, cheers. :-) Have you ever thought of doing this professionally?
In light of the comments about sloppy journalism made by Clarence MItchell as you report ("There are appalling standards of journalism.Journalists are lazy and not checking the facts. Sloppy standards with newspapers.") the following article is of interest. It is the Press Association (news agency) report of the same meeting. Appearing in most papers in the morning and online everywhere, it carries the completely misleading heading: Madeleine's parents 'not suspects' and doesn't even sound like a report of the same meeting PDG has posted about here.
I wonder if Clarence had a hand in the spin cycle here?
copy of PA article follows...
* Published Date: 31 January 2008 * Source: Press Association * Location: The Press Association Newsdesk
Madeleine's parents 'not suspects'
Madeleine McCann's parents are not suspects, says family spokesman
British police and child protection officers do not suspect Madeleine McCann's parents of involvement in her disappearance, the couple's spokesman has said. Clarence Mitchell said officials had assured him in private briefings that they were treating the case as one of "rare stranger abduction".
He was speaking as he launched an outspoken attack on the "appalling" standards of some media coverage of the disappearance of the Kate and Gerry McCann's daughter in Portugal in May.
Mr Mitchell, who acted as the couple's spokesman shortly after Madeleine went missing and reprised this role four-and-a-half months ago, said he was completely convinced of their innocence.
He told a packed theatre: "I have never once seen or heard anything from either of them to give me any cause for suspicion in any shape or form.
"I have also had briefings privately from the police and the Child Exploitation and Online Protection (CEOP) centre that also gave me complete reassurance that the authorities, in this country certainly, are treating this as a case of rare stranger abduction, as they call it."
But Mr Mitchell said he felt "shamed" as a former reporter by the "sloppiness" and "laziness" of certain journalists in covering the story.
Speaking at a debate on The McCanns and the Media at the Lond on School of Economics, Mr Mitchell said: "What we have taken issue with, and our lawyers continue to review, is the aspect of coverage that is not only distorted but wilfully misrepresentative at times of the facts as we know them or the lack of facts. In that vacuum I'm afraid some very sloppy standards have crept in."
He singled out "the sloppiness and laziness of some of the journalists, and the lack of independence of thought and checking of facts".
Mr Mitchell said he understood putting a story about Madeleine's disappearance on the front page could add 70,000 sales to some newspapers, meaning there was "definitely a commercial imperative" to reporting on the case. He assured the audience they could be certain that "every single one" of the negative stories they read or heard about the McCanns was untrue.
Copyright (c) Press Association Ltd. 2008, All Rights Reserved.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
thanks Arm. ( I wouldn't mind doing anything professionally at the moment as I have no work!). Well this is what I was referring to at the end of my piece. The press coverage doesn't at all reflect the event that I attended. I agree with Clarence Mitchell that reporting is sloppy, but for completely different reasons! (in fact I was wondering whether to say that as my question). And as for the McCanns not being suspects, it was clear that this statement was based on Clarence's own contacts within the British police (which certainly doesn't reflect the opinions of British policemen that I know) and not at all with the Portuguese police.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Thank you very much pinkdrummergirl for your report. You have done an excellent job.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
CM being put under a tiny bit of pressure by a radio interviewer
John: Great spot, superb interview. Bet Clarence regretted doing it after about 2 minutes in! However I must say that it threw up this horrible issue of class here in the U.K. The fact that it was a Sun reporter meant he had no problem just throwing the question in Clarence's face. His assurance that a couple of chavs would have got the same consular support was hollow. His answers on the 3 Amigos made it clear that he personally would get rid of them tomorrow. I really do feel he may be on the brink of resignation. Remember the famous Sun headline "IT WAS THE SUN WHAT DUN IT" or of course the other one during the Falklands War "GOTCHA" Are the media divided on class lines? What does everyone think?
AReasonableMan
· 1 year ago
Well worth a listen, cheers John.
If the story was a kite being flown to see how people would respond to a movie deal (as it is confirmed they were talking to a hollywood film company about a film) it hasn't been very well received; and if it was a smokescreen relating to resignations from the fund - well, I think people know about that too.
McCanns: innocent until proven guilty in regard to the legal process ; but venal, stupid, irresponsible and hubristic on the basis of their own public actions since May 3. IMHO.
The legal process... not holding my breath... will be subject to increasing pressure from all sides, including the diplomatic channels.
Still fascinating though.
Dee
· 1 year ago
Yes that was well worth the listen, congrats. to that guy! Yes, it was answered there was one meeting...not ruled in/not ruled out by CM. The guy (?) did an incredible job!!!! Remember I am from out of the continent, so he may be famous and I just...don't know it. Excellent piece, thanks John.
3.1.08 Police has new evidence against Madeleine's parents
Investigation about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann from a quiet resort at Praia da Luz had “important developments” in the last weeks, after a Portuguese police team met with Leicestershire police and representatives from Forensic Science Service, the British laboratory where samples collected at the crime scene are being analysed.
On a preliminary report about the case, recently sent to the Public Prosecutor's Office, Polícia Judiciária (PJ) states that the parents remain the main suspects. Among other pieces of new evidence, there is a specific phone call and several messages, send from Ocean Resort, that are classified by investigators as “highly incriminating” Gerry and Kate McCann.
The same evidence also gave indications about how the body of Madeleine McCann could have been taken from the apartment and disposed of. Today, it was confirmed by a source from the Public Prosecutor's Office that a request to extend the time limit for the case will be filed, with the Criminal Court, before January 14, eight months after the first formal suspect was named.
Questions for the friends
The Tapas Group, the friends who had dinner with the McCann on May 3rd, will be questioned again soon, as a formal request to the British Home Office is ready. Police wants to clarify, first, contradictory statements about the night of May 3rd, and PJ detectives would like to interrogate Gerry and Kate before the end of January – something that will depend from the time Home Office and British police will take to proceed with the questionings.
Among many details that are confuse or contradictory, Police sources refer the fact that witnesses confirm they saw Gerry McCann and Russell O'Brien going inside apartment 5A to check the three children sleeping there. The McCann spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, is already preparing public opinion for a new interrogation of Madeleine's parents and yesterday told British Media that Kate and Gerry would be pleased to clarify “misunderstandings” related with their previous statements.
New detectives hired
Hogan International, a company specialized in asset investigations, is reviewing Madeleine's case, working in coordination with Metodo 3, the Spanish detectives company that announced recently they knew who kidnapped Madeleine and promised to find her before Christmas. Sources close to the McCann supporters say that the six-month contract with Metodo 3, which ends around March, will not be renewed and Hogan International will replace them, in the private investigation set up by the McCann, following advise from Control Risk Group.
The McCann legal team has asked private investigators to concentrate in specific details of the investigation related with Police evidence of Madeleine's death and his body disposal, instead of following leads about sightings or other information related with a possible abductor. Duarte Levy and Paulo Reis
Andrea
· 1 year ago
Dee, in addition to ygazeta digital text about new evidence Paulo Reis writes about his observations about trollls and CM:
"Editor's Note:
The increase of “troll” activity following the teaser I posted here, two hours ago, was visible in many forums and message boards discussing Madeleine's case. It's curious to analyse some of that activity and look at details about the most prolific posters. This is something that deserves a more researched article. Whenever people wishes to confirm that new evidence has been uncovered, just pay attention to the number of new witnesses or facts showing that Gerry and Kate are innocent and will have their status of “arguidos” lifted soon, published by the British Press. Clarence Mitchell has, indeed, good sources in the Government. He knows a lot more about the case than the legal defence team working for the McCann. But he didn't realized yet that every attempt to anticipate bad news with a disinformation campaign seems almost a confession and, at the same time, it's a proof of the strong and deep connections between authorities in UK and the McCann inner circle of supporters. Paulo Reis"
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Also found this on Reis site re : trolls posted by 'Walter"
"The "trolls" - or astroturfers - on the mirror.co.uk forums operate in shifts.
Although there're obviously more of them tonight, the following names were actively swarming and disrupting together a few nights ago:
Most are U.S. fundamentalist Christians who seem to believe in the McCanns' statements as unquestioningly as they do the myths of their faith.
How shrewd it was of the McCanns to not only remember they were Catholics but to go and kiss the Pope as well."
lizbee
· 1 year ago
John Remember I said I had three trolls chasing me recently well Blueberry led the pack saying I was 'sick minded' and 'needed professional help' (she tends to follow me around if some of the more popular regulars aren't in) then there was therese and poorhorse, I've also had a more recent run in with scandinavia who just questioned every single word I said. I try to keep out of their way but it's difficult when they follow you to every topic you comment on and mock everything or keep asking for 'links' & 'evidence'. Blueberry (and I think it was Vilipend) made me laugh the other day when we were discussing CCTV in PDL as I pointed put to her she'd obviously never been there but the people she was arguing with had; I asked if there were any Ptgse friends online and two came into the conversation and disputed everything she said and agreed with us. Bless her she still came back with some guff about how limited CCTV was at the MW resort until someone then posted the location of the cameras; gotta hand it to them for tenacity but I wouldn't get into anything with any of them unless you're prepared to see it through to the bitter end and face a barrage of personal insults. I believe in free speech but MF must know they are purely in it to disrupt but I guess they are afraid of the backlash.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Liz - I salute you for your persistence in dealing with all these idiots. Nothing wrong with being pro-McCann but what is all this trolling about really - and why the odd religious side to it? I'm not sure I understand where these people are coming from.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
HOLD THE PHONE did you say Gerry and ROB going into 5a together???? I've not seen this anywhere before and what time was this???
Dee
· 1 year ago
Yeah we all forgot to add this minor detail when we were trying to do a timeline. It had to be in the evening as the kids were sleeping, wonder what day? A huge new development if true, as why would 2 people have to check??? Gerry can remember looking down at his lovely daughter and think how lucky he is, but he can't remember him & ROB in the same room. I wonder how CM will explain that omission..."we can't talk about details of the case"? Wonder if it news to them about a witness? Hopefully they don't know who it is.
BTW have notice how so many people on the MF now are claiming to have inside information? A poster made a funny comment "does everyone on this forum have a source now, but me?"
Dee
· 1 year ago
Daily Express http://tinyurl.com/2cce3z In a further blow for Madeleine’s parents, police files against them will not be made public next week after the authorities applied to extend their investigation. Kate and Gerry McCann, who remain official suspects (arguidos) in their daughter’s disappearance, had hoped to discover what evidence detectives had against them on January 3 when a crucial secrecy deadline passed.
Under Portuguese law the police must make their findings public eight months after an investigation is launched.
But the McCanns and Robert Murat – the only other official suspect – will have to wait for at least three months to gain access to the files following the postponement of the deadline. This is allowed because prosecutors have awarded the investigation “special complexity” status meaning normal rules can be ignored.
Carlos Casimiro, a magistrate and expert in Portuguese penal procedure said the deadlines could be extended indefinitely because the case remains so high profile. He told Portuguese newspaper Diario de Noticias he thought the most likely outcome – even after two extensions – would be “the delay of the investigation in a desperate attempt to seek enough evidence to make an accusation”.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
“special complexity” ... that just about sums it up!
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Yessss.... But what the hell does that mean? John.
What exactly is the 'special complexity' that allows normal rules to be unobserved?
Jose
· 1 year ago
According to the new Portuguese Penal Procedure Code, an inquiry should normally be public at the end of 8 months. However there is a derogation if the case is judged "complex" by the competent authorities. And there is an extension of three months that is allowed.
That means that the inquiry will not be closed by January and that the PJ detectives don't want that the suspects and their lawyers have a free access to the files before the end of their inquiry.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Re: Special complexity in this case, thanks Jose for clearing that up - it's just soooo frustrating though isn't it.
Jose
· 1 year ago
What are you finding frustrating? The fact that the inquiry will not end in January?
lizbee
· 1 year ago
The fact that there are so few facts Jose. It can go on and on for me so long as we reach some universal truthes. When I first started seriously thinking about the 'ins and outs' of this case and then commenting all those months ago my main concern was to have established in my own mind at least the timeline of events prior to, during and after the event... I feel only slightly closer to knowing those details and certainly no nearer to the truth.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
I think that although we do not know the cast iron facts, we do at least know that the thing is not as cut and dried as the McCanns would have us believe. The McCanns themselves opened up all tis massive media interest - originally to promote the search for Madeleine - but more latterly it seems to me at least that far from trying to promote clarity and truth their use of the media has been all about confusion and smokescreens (most recently this DJ Shifty character). If it had been up to the PJ we would know practically nothing - except those rather ill advised leaks prior to the McCanns becoming arguidos. But it would be easy for the McCanns and the T7 to clear up the time line. They are prevented from speaking directly but this has not stopped them from speaking indirectly about most aspects of the case - except those parts which would give the kind of clarity we would like. They could clear up the time line tomorrow if they wanted - after all they met in a hotel to rehearse it didn't they?
Jose
· 1 year ago
The Belgian website kidnapping.be reports that the man, that is "presented as the perfect suspect" by the British press, Christian Ridout has been identified and interviewed by the Spanish Police. When Madeleine vanished, he was in Spain and his alibi has been checked. He is 32 years old and he left Portugal two years ago. According to Clarence Mitchell, Método 3 is searching this man. He is presented to the entire press as a suspect in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. Nothing shows that is implicated in this case and his presumption of innocence should be respected. Furthermore, he has not the profile of a predator looking for a four year old girl.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Jose - thanks for all these posts. I am saddened to think that the case may be extended and that the dreaded Rogatory letters are still a matter of debate. But the wheels of justice grind slowly. I suspect that this Ridout guy is just another red herring and like the blue bag has been checked out since the beginning.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Diario de Noticias:
Maddie's case can drag on for six months
In January, the investigation of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann will reach the maximum period of eight months defined in the Penal Procedure Code. So this month is pointed by several lawyers and also by some elements of the Judicial Police (PJ) as a "decisive" date . But the Ministerio Publico (MP) can extend the period of the inquiry.
The problem is to know by how many months should the process continue, taking into account the fact that this body does not know what kind of crime has been committed.
The expert in penal procedure and also president of the Union of Magistrates of Public Prosecutors (SMMP) for the of the district of Évora, Carlos Casimiro, explained to the DN that "the outcome of this process depends exclusively on the definition of the type of crime that has been committed against Madeleine McCann".
The magistrate says that "the PJ is maintaining two theories - one is the abduction and the other is the homicide crime.The extension of the deadlines as defined for the investigation depends on the type of the crime". In this contest,he explained that "also for each type of crime, there are several deadlines for the extension of the inquiry, because there are also different types of abduction and homicide crime". "A crime of abduction might be, for example, a few hours kidnapping and for a homicide crime there is a wide typology. For each one there is a specific deadline".
According to Carlos Casimiro, if the detectives conclude that Maddie has effectively been murdered and if everything is still performed publicly relatively to the perpetrators of the crime, in January the MP can request the extension of the period of the investigation for more three months. At the end of this period, if the the same incertitude is maintained, the MP has the possibility to request a second delay which can only be for more three months. After that, there are only two possibilities: the closing of the investigation for lack of evidence or as the magistrate thinks to be more "foreseeable" that there will be a "delay of the inquiry in the desperate attempt to seek evidence to sustain an accusation".
Carlos Casimiro said, "we are in presence of a highly internationally mediatic case and it is the image of the country that is at stake". Moreover, he stressed, "the Judicial Police has been, since the beginning of this process, perfectly slandered, essentially by the British press and this is why its reputation and its high professionalism should be preserved".
After the disclosure on the 23rd of the video made by the McCanns during the first Christmas since the child disappeared showing images of the girl excited and opening the presents of last year, the agency of Spanish private eyes, Método 3, which works for the couple in the investigation of her disappearance, has already received 347 calls with alleged information about her whereabouts.
The new information is now being examined by the detectives of Método 3, one by one. And according to the DN, that agency "does not throw away any information whatever it it comes from."
Presently, the detectives focus their attention especially in Portugal and Morocco, in the city of Marrakesh.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Neil Sears & Sam Greenhill report in the Daily Mail that the private detectives seeking Madeleine McCann are hunting a Briton , Christian Ridout, who fled Praia da Luz after being accused of grooming an under-age girl for sex.
"Portuguese officers, widely criticized for a series of blunders in the Madeleine case, have never succeeded in tracing Ridout.
"The spokesman for Madeleine's parents Gerry and Kate confirmed that the Spanish detective agency working for them, Metodo 3, was seeking more information on the missing man.
The pub of the parents of Christian Ribout is nicknamed as "The Plough and Paedophile". Christian Ribout is widely "disliked in the the tight-knit community".
He sent 25 obscene messages to the 12 years old girl. The mother of the girl called Christian Ribout and said to him "If you come anywhere near my daughters again I'll kill you".
The very same night he disappeared.
Now, I really understand why the McCann team was so pleased with the last interview of the McCanns. That's the kind of story that Método 3 should investigate after having done a proper propaganda in the press.
In a first time, it is reported that a dangerous pedophile has not been found. His name is secret. The Portuguese Police is incompetent because he was never found. The public read it and naturally people said give us his name! He is a monster. He should be arrested.
Then the second story is published the name and the crimes of the monster. A pedophile who do phone sex. Don't worry, that's a mission for our heroes, Metodo 3, who will discover where he is and his cellular would be confiscated.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Correio da Manhã:
Investigation: The inquiry will not be completed in January MP wants to extent the expiry date of the secret of justice
The Ministerio Publio (MP) should ask the extension of the secrecy law in the Madeleine Case. On January 3, it will be eight months since the disappearance and at the end of this period the process should become public. A source closed to the investigation confirmed to the CM that however "it is likely that the MP will ask for the postponement".
Presently, it is more than certain that the inquiry will not be concluded in January - the Letters Rogatory are still in Portugal - and neither the PJ nor the MP wants that the information, that has been already included in the process until now, should become public before the end of the investigation.
"After the eight months period, the Penal Procedure Code (PPC) provides the possibility to request the postponement of the lifting of the secrecy law for three months", explained to the CM a source of the MP. "Then the judge of Justice may or not approve the request", adds the same source.
After the request of the MP and the approval of the judge, the Madeleine case should only become public in April 3. At this date, the process could be then be consulted.
At the end of the three months, there is also another possibility to postpone. For this, the MP could request a delay that is "objectively appropriate and necessary for the conclusion of the inquiry", continues the same source of the MP.
However, according to the new code, this second extension applies only to the cases of terrorism or highly organized crimes that involves crimes such as crimes of conspiracy, trafficking of persons, arms smuggling, drug trafficking, corruption, trafficking of influence or money laundering. So far, the Madeleine case has not been classified as one of these crimes.
A source closed to the inquiry assured however to the CM that "the Letters Rogatory are almost ready to follow to England". After the dispatch having been scheduled for the las week, the same source explained that "it is a complicated process because it involves the translation of documents with legal terms".
There is however still a certain date for the dispatch of the Letters where the Judicial Police defines the questions and what persons should be questioned in the British Soil.
Blue Bag
The disappearance of a blue bag from the apartment where the McCanns were spending their holidays, now revealed by Gerry, has been investigated by the PJ at the beginning of the case.
Pedophiles
A source closed to the investigation ensures to the CM that all the British pedophiles that were in Portugal, May 3, were investigated and cleared.
Jose
· 1 year ago
SoS Maddie:
The researched Briton has not been seen during the last two years
The Briton that the Police has not been able to locate is in fact Christian Ridout, son of the owners of a pub at Praia da Luz. The man, 32 years old, has disappeared from Portugal two years ago after he has harassed by SMS a young girl of twelve years. The information not confirmed by the Judicial Police adds that the Briton is better known as DJ Shifty.
"There is no indication that he was at Praia da Luz, May 3", says a source closed to the inquiry contacted [yesterday night] by SOS Maddie, who adds that "the individual is not known for pedophile activity in Portugal".
Barman and disc jockey, Christian has not been seen at Praia da Luz since 2005 but Clarence Mitchell, the head of the McCanns' image, said now that the agency of private eyes, Método 3, is considering him as suspect.
After having sent dozens of messages with sexual proposals, the man had been confronted by the mother of the girl and then he fled to Spain where his car has been found abandoned near the airport of Seville.
"The work of Método 3 until now speaks for itself. This information has for us the same value as the previous ones", says the same source, noting that the line of the inquiry is maintained.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Tony Parsons continues to work for truth and reconciliation (ha):
"She has been let down by the criminally incompetent Portuguese police force. And by the £50,000-per-month Spanish private detectives and their dangerous, macho boasts of bringing Madeleine home by Christmas. And by the poisonous hacks of the lurid Portuguese press. And by the British people who flood internet chat rooms abusing Madeleine's parents for leaving her alone, as if apportioning blame somehow makes the tragedy of a missing child any less."
Obviously the complaints last time had no effect on this stupid man.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
happy christmas everyone... hopefully we will have a resolution in the new year regarding this case. and thanks Andrea, for your supportive comments...
Jose
· 1 year ago
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
Jose
· 1 year ago
The bag stories
Although Clarence Mitchell denied the claim that Portuguese police had been unable to find a blue tennis bag “big enough to carry a small child”, Kate did report a story about a bag when they returned to England in September.
The Sunday Sun did report at that time that Kate said of the police: "They are basically saying, 'If you confess Madeleine had an accident, and that I panicked and hid the body in a bag for a month then got rid of it in a hire car, I'd get two or three years' suspended sentence".
The Daily Star claims that Gerry Gerry "was reportedly seen with the holdall as he took up to three tennis lessons a day on the ill-fated holiday that ended with Maddie, four, vanishing".
Vanessa Allen in the Daily Mal also writes quoting Sky News that "detectives think the blue holdall could have been used to carry Madeleine away, or even to transport her body".
She also adds "Portuguese police worked for several months on the theory that Madeleine died in her parents' holiday apartment and that her body was somehow transported to a hiding place after her death, but have been unable to find sufficient evidence to prove such a claim.
"Forensic samples which they hoped would prove her body was transported in her parents' Renault Scenic, hired 25 days after she went missing, proved inconclusive".
In certain papers it is suggested that someone, may be a pedophile that has not been found, used the bag to transport Madeleine McCann. In other newspapers it is reported that the Portuguese Police is only working on the theory that Madeleine is dead and disposed by her parents in the blue bag of Gerry.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Seasonal Greetings evryone wherever you are - whatever your beliefs and customs, have a really good time with friends and family. I wish you all peace, health and happiness in 2008.
I also join you all in hope for resolution in this case and justice for Madeleine. Best wishes, Liz
xxxx
Dee
· 1 year ago
Same to you Liz and everyone else...Liz summed it up perfectly as she always does.
Cheers to A Happy, Fun & Safe Holiday,
Dee
Maggie
· 1 year ago
Read the beachy post and it makes sense. Saw the video and agree with all the comments, I noticed they didn't thank all those who contributed so generously to the fund. Still trying to figure out this posting malarky. I'll get there...eventually...
Happy Christmas and a Wonderful New Year to you all.
xx
Jose
· 1 year ago
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
Andrea
· 1 year ago
merry christmas jose!
Lynn
· 1 year ago
I have to say, I was really upset by the video of Kate and Gerry. Innocent until proven guilty and as it stands that is my belief, no matter what is said or done until there is evidence to the contrary that beyond a shadow of a doubt leads me to believe otherwise I shall believe in their innocence. There are things that make me sway, I do not dispute that, yet a part of me watched that video and saw as a mummy two people who have lost their daughter, through whatever reason they are going to have the sadess Christmas imaginable and their poor little girl, wherever she is will be having, well who knows what sort of Christmas she shall have, I am afraid I cannot bear to think about it. This year my Christmas wish too is that Madeleine is returned and reunited with her family. We, the PJ and others are trying to prove they killed Madeleine, but for one moment imagine we are all wrong, that poor family must, like all families who have a missing person, be in tatters. Kate looked terrible, clearly lost weight and the black circles were masked by concealer.
The only bit I found hard to swallow was the "love you Madeleine" at the end of the video, I just imagine how I would be, Gerry seemed distant, perhaps a protection mechanism, I am not going to analyse body language as I think perhaps they simply are very stagnent since this whole sad sad case.
I did find it interesting that Gerry was described as a joker and the life and soul of the party, one look at him now shows a man who shall never be that again.
At this time I just feel that I shall have faith in the judicial system and hope that the truth is outted and whatever the outcome I hope Madeleine knows how much she is missed by all, those who loved her and those of us who in a strange way I cannot describe have grown so fond of her. Looking at my little ones sleeping safely I still can never comprehend how Kate and Gerry could contemplate leaving them. Not wanting to go over old ground but to me that shall never be something I will ever understand about this case. I think it is nice to keep the presents for the twins and Madeleine, after all people wanted them to have them, the rest of the presents have been sent to places where children needed them. Sometimes it seems the McCanns cannot do right for doing wrong, I do think they deserve a break, I do pity them, even if they are responsible for Madeleine going missing, I shall still pity them for what they must be going through trying to keep up a facade must in itself be as painful as loosing Madeleine. At the end of the day, they wouldn't have intentionally killed her so they (if guilty) still have lost and are grieving for a daughter.
May you all have a warm and wonderful Christmas filled with happiness and love, I wish the same for Madeleine xx.
Dee
· 1 year ago
I felt your emotional struggle reading and please know that I think each of us has gone through a struggle in this case at different times and appreciate your views and courage to state your beliefs and reasoning. But although I wish, I could believe the way you do...I simply can't, do to the evidence "according to the press". Lynn we may disagree, but I wish you family a happy holiday and hope we can agree to disagree, as we are on the same page for justice. Love your postings.
Maggie
· 1 year ago
I'll post again. Haven't really anything to say except read the Beachy post and found it fascinating. Saw that Christmas message and noticed no thanks to those who generously donated in the past.
Happy Christmas and a wonderful New Year to you all.
xx
Dee
· 1 year ago
Hi Maggie, glad to see you haven't left all of us & happy holidays to you! I wonder if they thought if that thanked everyone who had generously donated in the past, it could imply no further donations were needed?
I am upset that all the Christmas parents that are supposedly are arriving are not being re-directed to to some kind of "toys for kids" charity and an appeal could have been made to donate a gift in Madeleine's name to xxxx for instance. Of course that would interupt the fund too. Maybe they will sell the toys for the fund (kidding)? Did you all notice in the video the kids kitchen center? WOW I have never seen anything like that...ever! These kids are obviously not lacking for material things.
Just seems a little too late. Even guilty parents do an emotional appeal right off the bat, not 8 months later. It appears more spin will be coming leading up to the questionings...then another new siting perhaps. Wonder how Met 3 will explain, why Madeleine didn't return for Christmas, oh yeah everything goes through CM. Why weren't they fired on the spot??? Surely between something like 8 lawyers they could have broken that contract they have with them.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
They have done appeals before Dee - so its not so strange to do this - except as you or someone said when they are obstructing the investigation and do not have police support and are paying for some dodgy private investigators to confuse everybody ... well.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Thanks John... well I found it quite moving word and sentiment wise. But again you have to stop yourself and think - has nayone else with a missing child been allowed this amount of exposure? What's wrong with this picture? It just makes me feel very uncomfortable when i know so much about the case... the 40 - 120 questions never answered, the contradictory statements, the fund!!!, the 3 amigos, the get out Portugal as fast as you can, the speedy washing of anything the dogs smelled death scent on - cc, jeans etc., the appalling attitude towards the PJ from the start, the govt. spin Drs & assistance from FO from the word go... I could go on. Then the appeal vid takes on a whole new light.
"Then, in January, the police investigation into Madeleine's disappearance on May 3 (which was nine days before her fourth birthday) is likely to be wound down.
Could "investigation" even be the right word to describe an inquiry that has been undermined by incompetence, negligence, errors of judgment and a campaign of disinformation which has resulted in Kate and Gerry McCann being publicly vilified and declared "arguidos" or official suspects?
Detectives who were so convinced Madeleine died in the McCanns' holiday apartment in Praia da Luz now believe she was abducted after all, as Kate and Gerry McCann have always maintained. If Madeleine were not still missing and her parents' reputation sullied by unfounded allegations, it would be almost comical.
Even without the wretched Portuguese police, the events of the past year would have probably destroyed many marriages."
And they are winding down! Are they?I thought they were poised for more questions for the T9.
Wow, geez...I was starting to wonder could I be wrong, then I remember "innocent" people do not obstruct justice, especially IF your child is missing. Forget the 40 questions for a minute, even something as simple & benign as turning over your cell phone records, these people have refused. They haven't done absolutely anything right since day one (in my opinion) and they talk about the police?
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Just seen the video on sky news. To be honest they just sounded like they were reading a script. Kate looked terrible and kept looking away from the camera. I don't think she is in a good state. But the overall effect was like all their video - difficult to watch but ... well so unnatural.
Dee
· 1 year ago
Same old thing then.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
Just watched it. Quite stilted. Echoing the Queens christmas message. Only real bit for me was the beginning when Kate spoke directly to madeleine, then after a bit it sounded scripted again. And also even if they know she is dead, then they probably still talk to her. I talk to dead people all the time, in my head.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
As regards logging on I just cut and pasted the http:/ link above into favourites and get straight here, I'll go back to haloscan and post a tiny url of it leaving a trail of juicy tid bits (breadcrumbs) for Stanley et al to follow... Liz
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Now this really is interesting. I don't know if you saw the tv news reports on the 'Omagh' trial re: DNA evidence, accused cleared etc. and possible links & scenarios with this case and DNA evidence if/when CJ proceedings go ahead. Well there has been an uninteresting discussion going on about this with predictions of doom and gloom re: DNA evidence following this, but not long ago my fave commenter Beachy had this to say:
"A few comments:
(1) Low copy number DNA analysis has been used successfully in trials in several different countries, including the UK, the US, New Zealand, and others. I am posting a link to a report by Dr. Peter Gill in which he lists a number of high-profile cases that were solved using LCN/DNA:
I am not aware of any country where LCN/DNA use is banned or forbidden. There are a limited number of labs that can do it, and many countries do not currently have a lab capable of performing such analyses. Not all countries are as forthright as Portugal in admitting that there is a more advanced lab somewhere else that can do things perhaps better than their national lab, and if anyone can do it better than they can, they want to give it a go at the best place possible. There is no scientific reason that LCN/DNA analysis should not become more and more widely accepted as the technology becomes more available. The Americans got some amazing results using LCN at the time of 9/11, and the technology was not nearly so advanced 6 years ago as it is now.
(2) One thing that bothered me about Omagh from the beginning of the trial is that early on I read that the LCN had only been run twice. For optimal results, it should have been done three times. Running it three times gives a greater basis of comparison to eliminate two potential problems called "allelic dropout" and "stutter." They know that now, and doubtless the DNA in Madeleine's case will receive a third analysis.
(3) Obfuscation by an expert witness will work better before a jury of laymen than it will work before a panel of judges who see these things on a regular basis. Perhaps Portuguese judges are not used to dealing with LCN/DNA, but I am sure they have seen DNA evidence many times.
(4) I rather got the impression that one of the biggest problems with the Omagh trial was that more than one police witness had lied about how the evidence was collected."
...another good comment from Beachy who clarifies why we can't assume that the DNA evidence will be pulled apart in the same way as in the Omagh case.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
If you haven't seen it already this website has a complete account of the case so far. Someone has put in an extraordinary amount of work:
John, I have heard of this before (a couple of posters are always referencing it on the forum) but never visited it. It's jam packed!! Wow someone has some serious free time and skill!
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
Its great! Excellent. I'm sure the lawyers of both sides are happy that someone is doing all this work.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Its amazing, if you've got the time to go through the history of the case and see all the video stuff - like where he refuses to say of he knew Murat. He looks really tense and almost storms off. If I was to be asked I would say from that he did know Murat. But now we know Murat was recommended by British Diplomats and so on. Can anyone think of a scenario or even a motivation for someone to help the McCanns dispose of the body? It doesn't make sense to me.
By Alex Watts In Barcelona, Thursday December 20, 2007
Private detectives hired to search for Madeleine McCann have moved to plush new offices as questions emerge about whether they are giving good value for money.
People who donated to the Find Madeleine Fund are seeing Metodo 3 pocket £50,000-a-month of their cash - without any apparent breakthrough.
The group has not yet produced any evidence to back their claims that they know who took the girl.
Boss Francisco Marco claims he knows the girl, who would be four years old now, is alive and could be reunited with her heartbroken parents Kate and Gerry for Christmas.
But he was not available to speak to Sky News Online by phone and on arriving at his office in Barcelona, it was claimed he was out of the country - working on a different case.
At a supposedly crucial stage in the inquiry, his luxurious new office - perched above a gay sauna in a grand, pillar-filled building - was in a make-shift state.
There was just one staff member in sight, and when asked if Sky News Online could see Mr Marco, she replied: "He's not here, he's out of the country on business. Not with the Madeleine case, on another case."
Her advice was to return in two hours, when the office would re-open.
But on calling back at 4pm there were three staff and a small dog in the reception area, as well as a steady flow of people unloading boxes of files and other office equipment.
They refused to say anything, and grew steely when Madeleine was mentioned.
A few minutes later, a smartly-dressed detective arrived and refused to discuss anything to do with the case.
He kept stressing: "I can't say anything. Only Clarence Mitchell (the McCanns' official spokesman) can talk about the case. I'm sorry."
This was a far cry from Mr Marco's astonishing claims just a few days before that he knew who had kidnapped the little girl.
His comments sparked reports of a stand-up row with the McCanns, who accused him of harming the chances of finding their daughter alive.
On calling the spokesman the day after Mr Marco made his claims, Mr Mitchell said he knew nothing about them.
He questioned why, if Metodo 3 knew where the vanished girl was, they did not go and get her.
It also seemed strange that if Mr Marco had a major breakthrough to report, then he should tell a newspaper before his clients.
Although Mr Mitchell says he is pleased with Metodo 3's "operational work", sources close to the family have reportedly warned that the chances of its contract being renewed when it runs out in March are "virtually nil".
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Handy being above a gay sauna ... the sort of detail which journalists love I think. I wonder if the small dog was a cadaver dog.
Why do I keep thinking that the row between the McCanns and M3 is a facard and he was just saying what they wanted by claiming he knew where she was and so on. he is a smoke screen and I think he knows it - quite happy to pocket the money. But the McCanns have to pretend to be cross so they not associated with the ridiculous spectacle.
Lynn
· 1 year ago
Met 3 are a total waste of time!!!!!!!!!
Least they got new offices out of Madeleine, hate all this I really do.
metal guru
· 1 year ago
If this comes out anonymous, it's me metal guru (Marc Bolan is my hero!) I'm a bit dim about this. I don't want to post anonymously but trying to log on as my name is proving difficult. I am a luddite! Help please.... Anyway. Just to recap. We have mc in the hello magazine. Well that is the kiss of the marriage deaths. Ever heard of the "curse of Hello"? If they are featured in this mag, well I can guarantee it will be a mega moneyspinner for that publication. Who would miss seeing all about them? Even if it is set up for the cameras. It sells. All the best, MG
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
Metal guru, is it true, yeahyeahyeah. The curse of Hello, yes that did occur to me too. Other thing that is kiss of death for marriages is having a child die or disappear.
metal guru
· 1 year ago
PDG, I wasn't trying to diminish the loss of Madeleine, but really, to go into that level of exposure in a glossy mag...... well, if it were my child gone, I'd be so devastated that I couldn't even think of a make up artist or a photographer messing around with me. But then, I have neither lost a child, nor known what it's like, but I look to the dignity of people like the Soham families and compare and contrast. Nuff said I think.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
I know you weren't love. it is true that pretty much all the parents who have lost a kid one way or another have split, Sarah Paynes parents, Jamies Bulgers parents... too much sadness perhaps, they look at each other and they remember... Crime leaves so many victims, not just the initial victim, it spreads out like ripples in a pond. When my brother in law committed suicide, the father of my child ended our relationship. I could see his mind tick over, life is short, grab my freedom and run...
Dee
· 1 year ago
I think you're right John. But I don't think they expected M3 to be as specific as their detailed promise were. I think they expected puffs of smoke, not detailed smoke signals. You get what you pay for, does not apply here. A third rate company is still a third rate company, no matter what you pay. So why are they paying so much...for a pack of baloney? Let's face it they can afford sirloin. Is it because they wanted/needed baloney; not steak?
Thousands of Portuguese telephone records have been seized by police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
Detectives are trawling through the paperwork looking for unusual patterns of calls around the time she vanished.
Head of the inquiry Paulo Rebelo ordered the check across Praia da Luz, Burgau and Lagos - a region which has a population of 27,000.
He has gone back to old-fashioned policing methods after forensic evidence failed to provide any breakthroughs.
The operation indicates the team believes a local accomplice may have been involved in aiding Madeleine's abduction.
Detectives have begun the process of contacting up to 1,000 locals whose records or mobile signals show they were in Praia da Luz on the night of May 3.
Officers are particularly interested in the time between 9.30pm and 10pm, when they believe Madeleine disappeared.
One resident said two detectives visited her on Tuesday, armed with two sheets of paper containing hundreds of numbers.
They asked her to confirm her mobile number and then asked her who she had called at 9.50pm on May 3.
She identified the number as her husband's mobile and said the officers told her: "We are investigating all calls made within Praia da Luz from 9.30pm onwards on May 3."
She said four of her neighbours had also been contacted by police about calls they made.
Detectives can use the "triangulation method" to pinpoint users who were in Praia da Luz on May 3. Mobiles give out signals every time they make or receive a call or text message, and when they are switched on and off.
Those signals are logged by phone masts and from measuring the strength of the signal to local masts, experts can identify precisely where a phone was used.
Kate and Gerry McCann were said to be "encouraged" by the police work.
"Any information could prove vital," their spokesman said.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
Well its good that the police are following up every lead and keeping an open mind about the cause of Madeleine's disappearance. Ultimately we just want to know what happened to her.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Sounds a bit like rehashed old news to be honest. they've been going on about phone records for months - a bit like the rogatory leters.
Jose
· 1 year ago
The rogatory letters will arrive in UK I have no doubts.
These news seems to be suspicious in the measure that they are not reported in the Portuguese press and also because they are signed by Vanessa Allen, a master in manipulation.
If the McCanns are involved in the disappearance of Madeleine, someone help them to transport the body out of the resort. If it is not Robert Murat nor a friend of the Tapas 7 who had a car, then it is someone living near Praia da Luz known by the McCanns or their friends.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Hmmm ... but that goes back to the old question .. hwy on earth would anyone help them dispose of her body?
Jose
· 1 year ago
That's the most difficult question. May be they didn't need the help of anybody.
I have seen some weeks ago a old case about four girls who were raped and buried in the beach in the north of France near Bethune at Sainte Cécile. It was incredible. There were all in a huge hole, the first was at only at 70 cm under the sand. The Gendarmerie (French Police) was with sniffer dogs who have detected nothing. It was one of the abductor who indicated the place. At that moment, I thought that Madeleine could effectively been buried in the beach without having been detected by the dogs.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
That's interesting, I wonder if there is something about sand which confuses sniffer dogs, or prevents the smell (back to mummification!) - or was it just the depth of the holes?
Police searching for Madeleine McCann are scrutinising all local phone calls made on the night she disappeared.
Portuguese officers believe several people might have been involved in snatching her from her parents' flat and are keen to find any odd pattern of calls in Praia da Luz after 9.30pm on May 3.
Detectives in the Algarve resort will speak to as many as 1,000 people about their phone records.
One woman told how officers arrived at her home on Tuesday with sheets of paper containing hundreds of mobile and landline numbers.
They quizzed her about an innocent call made to her husband on the evening of May 3. Madeleine's parents Kate and Gerry McCann are said to welcome news of the phone blitz.
It is believed police will also ask to see their phone records for May 3 when they quiz the couple in the New Year.
Their spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: "We are encouraged to hear that the police appear to be doing a very thorough job of tracking down people who were in the area at the time."
Technology using phone masts - called "Triangulation" - can pinpoint a mobile phone user's position. But masts in Portugal are stretched widely on the coastline, hampering the tracking process.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Correio da Manhã:
Celebrations: Great parents maintain the tradition Maddie will have gifts for Christmas
Disappeared more than seven months, Maddie continues to have this Christmas the same attention as her twin siblings, by the part of her great mother Eileen. The mother of Gerry, 67 years, revealed yesterday to the British press that she will not forget her eldest granddaughter - and as always, she will "pick out clothes and put money in a little envelope" for Madeleine. The grandmother ensures she will not despair or "give up hope", "as long as they don't find her body".
Also Susan Healy, mother of Kate, says her daughter "doesn't want it to be Christmas" this year, but the family feels the obligation "to do something for the twins". Any way, "it has been the most difficult period" "since Maddie disappeared" - in their house at Rothley, Leicester, there is no sign of Christmas and the family wants this year a "very quit, private Christmas".
Susan believes it was "diabolical" that her daughter and her son-in-law were made suspects, adding that "people are so intent on trying to find scapegoats, nobody is looking for Madeleine.".
Philomena McCann, sister of Gerry, says that in the family "nobody's been talking about Christmas" and they only want "it want it to pass quickly -but they've all agreed that none of the adults in the family are buying presents for each other".
However, several British newspapers have already assured yesterday that the Police will only interview the couple McCann and their friends who spent their holidays in Praia da Luz, Algarve, after December 27, just after the Christmas period.
The interviews will be conducted by the British police but with the assistance of some elements of the Judicial Police that will go to England. The spokesman of the McCanns, Clarence Mitchell, welcome the fact that "Kate and Gerry will be able to have as normal a Christmas as possible in the circumstances", but he is keen for the process to be completed as soon as possible. "No one has anything to hide".
Jose
· 1 year ago
Correio da Manhã:
Controversy: English people say José Manuel Anes attacked PJ Family's lobby is powerful
After having contacted José Manuel Anes, the Daily Mail published yesterday only two answers made to the four questions. "One of them was even distorted. I made a general comment about the criminology without criticizing the inquiry of the Madeleine's case in particular". What the criminologist said, "but has not been published", is that "the McCanns have a foundational guilt for abandoning their children - and there is a powerful and influential lobby that has been controlling the information".
The newspaper also quotes in the interview the former expert of the Laboratory of the Scientific Police, that has been published in the book 'The guilt of the McCanns' and 'is now distorted in the British press'.
The criminologist confirms to the CM that he said that 'it could be spent rivers of money in analysis, but without a proper preservation of the crime scene, there is nothing to do - it's a complete waste of time'. He only ensures that he has always kept "the due distance in relation to this case in particular'. He just made "a general comment about the criminal investigation".
Yesterday, the "distorted" statements of José Manuel Anes could be read in the 'Daily Mail'. The expert would have said that no suspect will face the court in this case because of the mistakes committed by the Police in the hours after the crime. Defense lawyers would demolish the presented scientific evidence. Clarence Mitchell, spokesman of the couple, soon appeared in public: "It is alarming to hear Mr Anes".
At the margin
The British press reported yesterday that the Portuguese Police will send new vestiges collected in the apartment of the Ocean Club where the McCanns spent their holidays for analysis to the Laboratory of Birmingham. According to the Daily Mail, they can point to the death of Maddie. But a source closed to the inquiry said to the CM that this "makes no sense".
'The guilty of the McCanns'
The book that is causing controversy in England is from the José Manuel Catarino, chief of the Redaction of the 'CM'. It is prefaced by Francisco Moita Flores and José Manuel Anes and the book has already been the target of the spokesman of the McCanns. After the launch day, December 6, Clarence Mitchell said that their lawyers were considering a lawsuit.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Jose - thanks for this. Why I wonder do the British press keep printing distorted stories fed to them by the McCanns without checking the sources? I used to think that this was merely about selling papers and lazy journalism - but I am beginning to wonder if there is something to all these conspiracy theories. The way in which this has been reported in UK and Portugal has been one of the most revealing things about this case. It has undermined any trust I had in the media and made me wonder about all the other stories that I have read - how well researched/misleading are they?
Jose
· 1 year ago
I will not make general judgments about the British press. Since, this is an article that has been published by Vanessa Allen in the Daily Mail.
Correio da Manhã say that José Manuel Anes has been contacted by the journalist of the Daily Mail. So the source has been perfectly checked. So it's not in this case, a problem that the source has not been checked because in fact it has been checked.
The journalist is using a old politician trick: whatever are the statements that you made, they arrive always to the same conclusion. José Manuel Anes explained that the scene of crime has been contaminated not by the Police but by the people who was in the room before of the arrival of the Police. Vanessa writes that Police has made mistakes in few hours after her disappearance.
"Huge amounts of money were spent but if, in the first hours, the due precautions for the preservation of the crime scene were not taken, all this hard work goes down the drain," she adds quoting words that were not said by José Manuel Anes.
In fact, Vanessa Allen is not interested in reproducing exactly what was saying José Manuel Anes, she is just interested in reporting her perverted version of the truth: Portuguese Police are incompetent that's why the McCanns are innocent and also this why the McCanns will never be judged.
Vanessa Allen is the same journalist was has used the Joana Case to discredit the Judicial Police of Portimão to sustain the theory that Joana has been abducted by a pedophile ring and this also the case for Madeleine. This propaganda has been widely used by the McCann team with the ex-Detectives doing this comments in several TV documentaries in different countries.
Returning to this article, what is also interesting are the statements of Clarence Mitchell - the same person who has declared that the British journalists should verify their sources before publishing it and when he was a journalist he published an information only if it has been confirmed by three sources. He said : "It is alarming to hear that Mr Anes has this view. All we want, and have throughout, is to ensure the operational police side of this has done in an effective and efficient manner as possible."
Indeed, it's alarming to hear a view that is not the view of Mr Anes, at all. And it is also alarming to hear Clarence Mitchell suggesting that probably the police has not been effective and efficient as they should be. And off course, Clarence Mitchell certainly knew that the statements of Mr Anes were untrue because he knows how badly the British journalist are working at Praia da Luz.
I think that in this case, there is a connivance between Vanessa Allen and Clarence Mitchell. They are just trying to manipulate the public opinion. It's not only lazy journalism, it 's also intelligent propaganda.
For me the question is: are this kind of journalist paid to write these papers or are they just manipulated by Clarence Mitchell who knows how they work?
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
That's the point Jose. What is the intent of the British journalists in doing this? Is it a deliberate attempt to distort the facts in which case what is the motivation? Why would they want to do this? Who are the McCanns or CM to them that they want to do this. Is it pursuation from CM along the lines that if you print this then you will be the first to get the big story when it breaks, access to the family and so on. Or is it something more sinister?
Jose
· 1 year ago
I imagine that the reason why Vanessa Ellen is still writing the same kind of paper is that there is a public who likes her articles. The more readers the Daily Mail got, the more she writes. And off course, the Daily Mail is only interested in sales and in the satisfaction of their clients. The search of the truth is not their main preoccupation.
And there is also the possibility that these papers are made on the order of the McCanns to promote the abduction theory.
The job of Clarence Mitchell consists in denying everything that is published against the McCanns and also to spread news sustaining the abduction theory.
Clarence Mitchell said that the McCanns are satisfied with the work of Método 3 and their contract will probably renewed. So I am more and more convinced that the function of Método 3 is precisely to promote articles in the newspapers reporting their "strongest theory" that Madeleine is alive and has been abducted by a pedophile ring. So the Police should not suspect the McCanns and they should try to find Madeleine. They don't care that Método 3 says lies like we know where Madeleine is, we are sure that she is alive. Everybody knows that they are lying but for the McCanns it's the kind of distorted news that should be published because they think that it can help them to prove their innocence and that will stop the Police in their inquiry against them. Also any kind of news that says the Police did not do its job properly is always a good news for them because it could influence the inquiry. I think that's the motivation of all this false news with distorted facts that have been printed in the press.
Gonçalo Amaral has been the first victim of this campaign and something told me that he could not be the last.
In fact in the same British newspaper which publishes an article against the Portuguese Police, you can have also false news against the McCanns as the one about the new DNA evidence send to the FSS. One day they seem to be for one side, the other day for the other side. I think that the deontology of these newspapers is mainly oriented in sales.
Lynn
· 1 year ago
I have been thinking about this long and hard and if it were me I know that I would say enough is enough. I would publically state that these lies were ridiculous, I wouldn't care of the consequences I would state that I was fed up with the rumours and that I wanted my baby back and that the police needed to stop trying to find me guilty and get out there and look for my baby and the horrid person who took her. I would be so angry and would let the world know it, regardless of the consequences, I wouldn't talk about the case but I would state my innocence loudly!!!
Not sure if it just me but surely an innocent person would stand up and be counted. I do not know for sure if we are all the same but I know I wouldn't take it anymore. I would also shut CM up for good, he now irritates me just by looking at him (oops sorry but it is true)
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Exactly Lynn that kind of justified anger is the kind of emotional reaction one would expect from an innocent person. They use words like furious etc. but where is the courage born of justified anger? Nowhere - just a load of waffle, disinformation and allegations.
Imagine that your child was gone and the police were faffing around with dogs and DNA - a day wouldn't go past that you didn't scream at them to get off their back sides and find your child. Or if you had the resources you would hire a proper agency and be out there with them looking. The M3 thing just makes me think they know she cannot be found. Gerry's gone back to work for gods sake.
metal gure
· 1 year ago
To John, Thanks for directing me here. I have to say I prefer the simplicity of haloscan, but if most of you are here, well then here we are! I Still look at HS btw. Anyway, As it is the holiday season, I am going to be a bit glib (apologies if I offend anyone), and say, IF>>>>> there is a court case with the MCs on trial who amongst all the posters here would like to be in the public gallery? MEEEEE for one, and I don't care if its PTG or UK, OK sorry, Maybe a bit before the mark. No offence intended, but I will be there, wherever and whenever it is.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Hi Metal - (you used to be a guru) - you can make this more or less as simple as HS by going to the top and selecting Oldest and Flat (both on the right) - but I agree I think this has frightened off many people as the number of post and posters has diminished. Mind you maybe they've found better things to do.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Hi is anyone around?
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
They are also appearing in Woman Own magazine. Now for all these magazines to publish interviews with the parents they must be pretty convinced that they are innocent? Has there been any other case in which suspects in a crime have been able to give Hello style interviews? The powerful lobby of the Mccanns... do you think that when/if the Mccanns had their accident with Madeleine, they sat down and thought this through... we need a PR, we need a detective agency to divert the investigation, how are we going to be able to afford this? I know, lets start a financial appeal. People will feel sorry for us so lets get the money in while it lasts... I mean, lets face it the Mccanns are pretty clever people. How machiavellian could they be? The only reason they have a powerful lobby ( unless all these govt connections/conspiracy theories are true) is because they have the financial means to employ high powered PR. And those financial means were provided by the public. At the end of the day, what else has the money been used for ? Only this, to prevent the Mccanns from being arrested. Or am I going too far?
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Well pdg it does appear to me that with the press coverage and the M3 business the most likely motivation is to try to prevent the McCanns ever being brought to court. I'm not sure if the Portuguese system works like this but in UK or USA now it would be well nigh impossible to get a jury which is not predjudiced in some way - so even if it ever gets that far they could always claim unfair trial and so on.
I think the magazines just make a calculated risk. If the McCanns are brought to trial I think there would still be some kind of voyeuristic attraction for some to look at their living room or at the star chart in the kitchen. So I don't think that their willingness to run articles on them says anything about their belief in the McCanns or otherwise. Its a cut throat business and is usually quite happy to turn against its 'subjects' without shedding a tear.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
True. But we never had an at home spread with Maxine Carr did we? Or see Ben Needhams family photographed with his presents? Or, getting more gruesome now, Sonia Sutcliffe modelling this seasons party dresses?
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
Yeah, renew metodo's contract... again, not actually expecting her to be found anytime soon in reality. Just like the anniversary concert that they planned last june with possibly Elton John!
British diplomats recommended Murat as translator/interpreter
Staff from Bill Henderson's office suggested the name of Robert Murat as a reliable translator who could be used in the police inquiry, the days following Madeleine McCann disappearance. Murat was already known among diplomatic staff, as he had recommendation letters from Norfolk Police, where he worked for Bernard Matthews, one of the largest poultry farm companies in UK, which employs hundreds of Portuguese workers. The fact that Robert Murat has acted, before, as translator for Norfolk Police, and the recommendation issued by Bill Henderson's office, at the time the British consul in Algarve, took police to accept the suggestion, according to PJ sources. After Murat was named a formal suspect, Police went through all translations he has done, checking its accuracy, but no problem was found, according to the same sources. Bill Henderson retired from his diplomatic post and went back to UK in August.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
I took this from a mirror post - its a link to the Daily Telegraph for 4th May:
Three year-old feared abducted in Portugal By staff and agencies Last Updated: 12:01am BST 04/05/2007
A three-year-old British girl has gone missing while on a family holiday in Portugal, the Foreign Office said today.
Portuguese police are investigating the disappearance from a holiday complex in Praia da Luz in the western Algarve.
A Foreign Office spokesman said that he understood the girl's parents had gone to have dinner once their children were asleep last night, but returned to check on them only to find the girl had gone missing.
advertisement"They reported it straight away," he said, adding that consular assistance was being offered.
Look at the time! 12.01 that's 2 hours after she's gone missing - the PJ didn't get there till around 11:00 did they? So the family must have gone to the media right away as has been suggested.
Portuguese police are sending new forensic material in the Madeleine McCann case to British scientists, it was revealed today.
The previously untested evidence is believed to come from the holiday apartment where she was last seen.
The move indicates that police in Portugal are maintaining their case that Madeleine died in the flat on the night of 3 May and that Kate and Gerry remain prime suspects.
It is believed that the latest tests are designed to bolster the original forensic results from the apartment, which are believed to have found traces of Madeleine's blood.
Experts from the Forensic Science laboratory in Birmingham will also conduct separate tests to establish where DNA already found in the McCanns' apartment came from.
To do this, further samples from the dozens of people who were in the apartment either before or after the girl disappeared are being sent to the laboratory.
The decision to submit the new forensic material was taken after a meeting in Leicestershire between Portuguese detectives and the British scientists.
Sources close to the investigation say that the aim is to "bring into sharper focus" the results previously sent to Portugal and to remove any possible alternative explanations for these findings.
Today's disclosures follow persistent claims, in the UK and Portugal, that the value of the forensic findings had been wrecked by the police failure to seal off the scene for weeks.
Sceptics have also claimed that the slow pace of the Portuguese investigation mean that the inquiry is running aground.
Sources in Britain dismiss such claims and say that although progress is methodical rather than spectacular, the new tests are intended to firm up the case being built by Portuguese detectives.
"New material is being sent and tests will be conducted to eliminate some people and to shine a brighter light on the results that have already been found," said one source close to the investigation."
"There is no dramatic change in the course of the inquiry and although progress might be slower than some people might expect, that does not mean that nothing is happening."
The new forensic tests come three months after a first batch of findings were sent to Portugal by experts from the Forensic Science Service.
The arrival of these initial results led to the McCanns being named as official suspects, although both continue to strongly deny any involvement in their daughter's disappearance.
No official confirmation of what these tests found has been provided, but leaks from Portugal suggest they include spots of Madeleine's blood in the Praia da Luz apartment and traces of her bodily fluids and hair in the couple's hire car.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Can we believe this? New forensics after all this time!?! I don't know.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Unfortunately I can John! Anything can and frequently does happen in this case.
Jose
· 1 year ago
This information has been dismissed this morning in the Correio da Manhã.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Interview of Clarence Mitchell in the free Spanish newspaper Metro:
- Are the McCanns punctually informed of the developments of the inquiry?
- They are informed of everything. Thus, we avoid the creation of false expectations in the case that the news are untrue. The private eye agency is in constant contact with the family although they only give information when it is consistent.
- Do the McCanns agree with the theory that Madeleine is alive and has been abducted by pedophiles?
- Yes, that is the theory in which they believe more strongly, especially because there is no corpse or any other evidence that indicates the contrary.
- Do you know the abductors who the detective, Francisco Marco, was talking about?
- Yes, they are perfectly informed of every step given by the detectives.
- At the end of six months, will the contract be renewed with the private eye agency, Método 3?
- They worked in this case during the last three months. When the contract will end, we will evaluate their results. If they are positive and if their work is so efficient as it has been until now, there is a lot a possibility that the contract would be renewed.
- How the McCanns would spend the first Christmas festivities without Madeleine?
- They don't talk about the subject, but I can assure you that despite the sadness caused by the absence of Madeleine, the twins will spend a happy Christmas. The most likely is that they will spend the festivities in their house at Rothley or they will visit a relative.
The key witness in the missing Madeleine McCann case was in hiding last night after fleeing Portugal.
Police have sworn the waiter to secrecy over his vital testimony and know where he is.
But friends say he is terrified his identity is about to be revealed and that he will come under pressure from rival factions in the case.
He is scared of British and Portuguese government influence in the probe. Friends claim he is also wary of the team of private eyes hired by Kate and Gerry McCann to help find their daughter.
But, according to former colleagues at the Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz, the knowledge he is playing such a vital role in the case that has gripped the world has horrified him.
One said: “He does not want to be involved in any of this. He was just a restaurant worker. His only problem was remembering food orders. He’s terrified.”
The waiter was the only resort worker to see Kate, 39, raise the alarm after apparently discovering her daughter missing just after 10pm on May 3. She insisted she ran into the tapas bar where her husband Gerry, 39, and their friends were eating and screamed: “Madeleine’s gone. Madeleine’s gone.”
But the waiter is understood to have told police Kate raised the alarm from the apartment balcony 75 yards away, screaming: “They’ve taken her. They’ve taken her.’’
Detectives want to know why she assumed so quickly her daughter had been abducted – and not simply wandered off to look for her parents.
Police value the waiter’s account because they cannot understand why – if Kate thought Madeleine had been snatched while unattended – she would then leave her twins Sean and Amelie in the apartment to run back to the tapas bar.
Jose
· 1 year ago
The website kidnapping.be reports that Robert Murat did not participate to the translation of the official interviews of the witnesses. However Robert Murat did help the police only during the first phase of the inquiry before it was officially said that it was an abduction. The official depositions of the witnesses were made after Murat has been made formal suspect. The statements reported by the British press concerning the translations of Robert Murat only denotes their (deliberate or undeliberate) lack of knowledge of what is a deposition, it is reported.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
typical.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Now I'm confused which thread are we on? Jose has posted on haloscan .... I need guidance.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Correio da Manhã: 18/12/2007
McCanns: Letters Rogatory Inquiries only after Christmas
Kate and Gerry McCann and as well their seven friends who spent their holidays together in Portugal, will only be re-questioned after Christmas. This is because the British Foreign Office will execute the Letters Rogatory of the Judicial Police (PJ) only after this date, so that the McCann's family could spend the festive period as normal as possible.
Even the PJ has not the intention to interrogate the parents of Madeleine or any of their friends during the festivities. "It's not usual for the Judicial Police to perform interviews during Christmas, unless if it is an absolute necessity", said a source close to the investigation confronted with the intention of the Foreign Office.
The same source assured that the Letters Rogatory - where the PJ requests the re-interview of the group and containing the questions that they want to be performed - have not yet been dispatched by Eurojust and are still at the Public Prosecution, in Portugal. "The more likely is that it would be sent this week", continues the same source, "but nevertheless, it should not be possible to perform any proceeding in England before the days 24th or 25th of December", he added.
Remember that the letters are delivered by the Portuguese Public Prosecution to Eurojust, the EU body that is in charge of the co-operation between the judicial services of the different European states. Then, it will be by this channel that the documents would be delievered to the Foreign Office that then will give its agreement about the proceedings required by the PJ. If it is approved as it is expected, it would be necessary to send to England the team of the Judicial Police that would provide assistance during the interviews conducted by the British authorities.
Yesterday, the British press revealed that Sean and Amelie, the twin siblings, brothers of Madeleine, did ask to Santa Clausa to bring home Madeleine. In statements made in newspapers, Kate and Gerry McCann said that the request of the twins has "broken their hearts" and that "Madeleine's return would obviously be the ultimate present" that they wanted.
The British media has also reported that the McCanns bought gifts for Madeleine in the hope that she will appear by Christmas.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Interview of Rogério Alves, Portuguese Lawyer of the McCanns, in the Diario de Noticias, today:
(...)
-Did the defense of the McCanns also emerge casually?
-There was a request for information from an international company of Lawyers who after having done their inquiries, did recommend my name.
-Your friendship with Pinto de Abreu did not have any influence?
-It did not have the slightest influence. The processes of choice have been completely different. The journalists are witnesses that I am for the the discretion and I make an effort of not talking about my clients.
-This is a case with enormous interest...
-In accepting this defense, I knew that I will not pass unnoticed. I had to take this little small burden with me.
-Then why did you accept it?
-The fact of being difficult to be hidden has not been important. Because this is an attractive case from a professional point of view and it would be cowardice of not accepting it.
-The fact of being the president of the Portuguese Bar association and because it is a case that opposes two countries, don't you think you could be instrumentalized?
-No. I never was and I will never not allow it. What happened is that many people with the will to criticize me use this way to do so. But we cannot leave us to be manipulated by those who make noises in the media. Because these people don't represent anything. And I can not reject a case because there is half of dozen of people who are starting to make noise in two columns of opinion or by other means...
-Did you meet your clients personally?
-The relationship between a lawyer and its clients is secret. I, as other Lawyers, I have to talk with my clients. This case is too much discussed but it doesn't have anything exceptionally different from the others.
-Did you move to England?
-If we open holes with this kind of information, we are contradicting what we are saying. Our own status allows that a lawyer comments publicly when the nature of the news could justify an answer. There I understand your confusion. Because this should justify thousands of answers. But my decision is exactly the opposite.
-The McCann couple has not suffer from the principle of the presumption of innocence?
-What worries me is that the intervention of the media in the most mediatic cases can put in question this principle. There has been a change in the public opinion when the parents of Maddie were made formal suspects... I will not comment. Off course, the media has an enormous power to influence the thinking of citizens.
-According to the previous penal procedure, should Kate and Gerry McCann have been made formal suspects?
-May be. Nobody knows. There is now a greater scrutinity when the suspects are made. This is true.
-This case has an outcome in sight?
-This depends on the inquiry. This will have an outcome when the Public Prosecution will make a decision.
-How do you judge the actions of the PJ?
-I will not comment this matter.
-But this is not a usual case. It is normal that I ask you these questions...
-Don't take it wrong if I don't answer.
-How much will you win with this case?
-I will win according to the status on fees: according to the hours applied, the means of who pays and the result for the client.
-But all this is subjective...
-Yes it is. But until now nobody has raised questions like that.
(...)
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
He's not saying much is he.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Rogério Alves don't say as Pinto de Abreu has suggested -commenting the statements of the General Attorney - that the McCanns were not made arguido if the new penal code was applied to them in September. On the contrary, he says that nothing can be said on this matter. That's probably the interesting point of the interview.
Also, I don't think that he has met the McCanns.
He doesn't say that the McCanns are innocent because they are innocent as Clarence Mitchell. He says that everything depends on the inquiry of the PJ and in the decision of the Public Prosecution (The Ministerio Publico). He is very respectful of the Portuguese Institutions.
Personally, I regret that he became the lawyer of the McCanns because he was my favorite commentator of the case.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
I've just read a great thread on the forum all about inconsistencies, it mirrors (excuse the pun) our own thoughts on these, see what you think:
" it was rare for Madeleine to wake up at all once she was in bed. If she did, she’d normally wander into her parents’ bed, whether they were there or not. At home in Rothley, sometime earlier, they had begun a star chart for Madeleine staying in her own bed. The chart, still on display in the kitchen, was full of stars. [Get that? Full of stars! So no need for sedatives - no sleep issues, it was fine leaving her, really! Full star chart - exhibit A for the defence]
But that's no defence - if they needed a star chart then it must have been an issue. In a strange place ... well it makes leaving her worse really.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
John,
Absolutely, in my personal experience of raising children & using Star Charts - they are behaviour modification devices placing a sreious family concern into a child friendly reward game - which you would never do if there was no issue in the first place.
I also noticed that cuddle cat was a gift from Jon Corner - her Godfather - there may have been more of a PR reason to keep cc close i.e. to keep Jon C intimately close to the family trauma. He would put this to good use later in the Panorama programme...
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
The cuddle cat that was left on a shelf - so that Kate immediately knew there was an abduction - or was it on the bed and it was the shutters that had been forced ... oh no of course it was the door that was ajar. So she ran back to the Tapas Bar ... or shouted from the balcony ... but then JT in the next apartment didn't hear anything till a friend knocked on the door so that she could remember that she had seen the abductor ... I'm feeling tired for some reason ....
Dee
· 1 year ago
They say it is the simple things that hang people. C.Cat on shelf or bed..., shutters, doors very simple...how can they screw up these items. Originally I blamed the press, but even if the press screwed up 50%, you still have a 50% mess on simple items. Note cuddle cat on the shelf or the bed was not disputed either way, but if someone is announcing they may change their story CM is out in full force. Well CM lots of people have changed their stories...on a continual basis.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
I've just had another thought following my last comment: I've got loads of pictures with my children holding, cuddling, playing with their favourite toy (of the time) and there isn't one photo that I'm aware of of Madeleine with cc - which I'm sure if there was it would have been aired. CC amazingly vanished once serving whatever it's purpose was; and going right back to the beginning didn't M have a favourite cuddle blanket that she wouldn't go to sleep without that was mentioned in all early news reports? Sorry to be a cc bore but it's just one of those open threads in my mind.
Dee
· 1 year ago
Absolutely John, you don't resort the the star chart if there is no reason and to leave a 3-4 year old alone....and un-sedated at that seems even more negligent!!!!!
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
I've just read that too. Very good analysis by the OP.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Hi pdg, I thought I was on my own in here, good to see you. Yeah I thought the thread was probably the more interesting one's on there at the moment and as you say a good OP by RRR.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Is Mrs Webster the mysterious Tapas One who contradicts the statements of the Tapas 7?
In the beginning of this week The letters would be sent
The Letters Rogatory - where the Judicial Police has requested new inquiries to the McCanns and their seven friends who dinned with them on the night of May 3,- will be sent to England in the beginning of this week, reveals the CM according to source closed to the investigation.
The letters will be sent though the Eurojust which co-ordinates the different department of Justice of the States of the European Union.
Yesterday, the 'Daily Express' said that CCTV footage have captured the presence of three men acting a suspiciously and nervously, smoking cigarettes and walking from side to side just a few meters for the apartment where the McCanns were spending their holidays. This happened the night when Madeleine vanished and in the day before.
The British newspaper also writes that the PJ - for having difficulties in seeing the faces that appeared in the images - will send the record to a laboratory of the FBI in the United States and adds that one of the men has strong resemblance with the abductor described by Jane Tanner.
However, this information has been dismissed to the CM by a source closed to the investigation that ensures that there is no image of this kind. "The CCTV camera closest to the apartment of the McCanns is the one of a supermarket and at this time it was out of order".
The same newspaper also reports that sniffer dogs were on the trail of Madeleine in a old barn at 45 kilometers from the village of Luz.
But these facts were also dismissed by the same source contacted by the CM that reveals that in the last days no new searches were made around Praia da Luz. Even when they were made, no information of this kind has resulted.
The McCanns are preparing Christmas
Kate and Gerry McCann are passing a phase "very complicated and sad" with the proximity of the Christmas festive period, the first to be celebrated by the family in the absence of Madeleine. "Christmas will be an incredibly difficult for us if Madeleine is not found before then. We plan to have a very quite, private Christmas with family in the UK", wrote Gerry in his blog that he has created to find his daughter. The cardiologist also writes that although they don't feel to celebrate Christmas they will do it with the twins. "We want Christmas to be as normal for Sean and Amelie as possible. They have already enjoyed decorating the Christmas three with their 'granny' and the great aunt", writes the father of Maddie. Gerry and Kate are still nourishing the hope of finding Madeleine alive and they expect to have her back by Christmas.
24 tourists are searched
The detectives of the Spanish agency, Método 3, hired by the McCanns, are trying to trace 24 British holidaymakers who spent their holidays in Praia da Luz in May. According the online edition of the 'Daily Star', they could hold "vital clues" for the inquiry. "We need them to come forward. They may have no information or they may have a tiny amount of information, which could prove vital in piecing together the jigsaw", said the detectives [in fact it is Clarence Mitchell who said it] to the British newspaper.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Source: Correio da Manhã
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
thanks jose. must say i'm bloody sick of hearing about these rogatory letters. They've been sitting in the 'out' tray for months it seems...
Jose
· 1 year ago
What I found interesting in the article of the Correio da Manhã this morning, it is not the story about the letters that probably would never arrived in England this year, but the fact that sources of the PJ dismissed the information about the CCTV footage showing a man looking like the bundleman of Jane Tanner.
Chanel
· 1 year ago
Ok, I found the pics Liz by clicking on the Disqus link and things were more in order for a quick read. I still havent found how to put a pic up, I keep looking for a Profile link, hmmm. At any rate I thot the pic was innocuous, it seemed to be two toddlers in the pushchair, one with girlie sandals, the other shoes more like tennies so to me that is in keeping with a boy & a girl. Kids do throw their limbs around, I saw nothing that seemed like one child was much older or larger. These were the jacy40 collection in photobucket. Many of the other pics were amusing such as the backstreet boys with one so obviously the JT suspect. Gotta be in a good mood for those pics tho, our Lynn would be distressed I think to look at those.
Which brings me to a point that has bothered me for awhile. Does anyone else have a problem sometimes in getting the different ages of Madeleine? I have a son, grown now, but I could recognize him as himself from year to year esply in early childhood. Sometimes Madeleine...she is ephemeral. The picture of her with the tennis balls held close looks so tall and much older to me than her pic by the pool with G and Amelie. Pics of her younger I would never believe to be her, they look more like the super round-faced child in Morocco in the sling on her mother's back. When I watch a YouTube with a roll of pics of Madeleine I really think I am looking at more than one child. Baffling.
But hasnt everything about this case been baffling? *
This is the proper link to the photo, look at the large picture of Gerry and the twins in the buggy on the right. Look through the cover, you can see two chidren, the child on the right looks way, way bigger than the child on the left yet it is supposed to be Amelie and Sean who we know are the same build and height! Creepy I know... could be a trick of the light, unusual seating position or could be Ella O'B; ... or ??
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
I know this is nothing to laugh about but I thought the pic of bundleman and the pope was funny. Ah well is this what we have come to?
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Others have commented on the changing face/age of Madeleine to the point where there is a hoax conspiracy theory. But it all seems a bit far fetched for me.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Have we lost some people on this new thread. Where is Stanley? I miss his wry comments. Have we thrown Nancy and Blimey off the scent. Or perhaps they have met up with Stanley at Rothley Hall and are plotting a come back.
Andrea
· 1 year ago
Yes where is Stanley, where is Lynn? Where is A reasonable man? Probabely all christmas shopping. I am really looking forward to blimeys picture...one day he/she will show up again...maybe wearing something pink?
Dee
· 1 year ago
Hey Andrea you maybe right some are out x-mas shopping, Lynn has posted here but I totally meant to point out where is "a reasonable man", he has been missing for quite sometime...and of course we miss him.
Dee
· 1 year ago
I miss Chanel, Billie, etc. (racking trying to remember who hasn't posted on the new board), where would we be without Stanley's wit? I know there are others and this new system is challenging, but I can understand if you occasionally drop in this could be useful in skimming, however it could be detrimental if you don't, (see post below) as you may miss comments. Please help.
In reality to the question: Do you think that she will return with her parents before Christmas? ("¿Cree que volverá con sus padres antes de Navidad?") He answered: who knows ("Ojalá").
The false news has been reported in UK, Portugal, Ireland, Germany, Australia, Argentina, Mexico, Urugay... and also in New-Zeland. And even in Spain in El Mundo quoting a British newspaper.
Lynn
· 1 year ago
You just simply cannot believe a word written by the press, yet we all do, somehow, sometimes, somewhat.
Jose
· 1 year ago
"The Lemming Effect"
"They will even deny that which they see with their own eyes. They are victims of a psychological affliction known as 'the lemming effect.'
The Queen is considering talking about Maddie in her Christmas speech.
She is said to be deeply saddened at the tot's disappearance and thinks a mention of her would strike a chord with the nation.
Parents Kate and Gerry are "deeply touched" by Her Majesty's concern.
But the Queen will take advice about whether it is appropriate to refer to Maddie while the McCanns are still official "aguidos" - suspects.
A Royal source said: "The case of Madeleine has touched the hearts of people everywhere and the Queen is no different.
"There's not one parent or grandparent who isn't hoping for Madeleine's safe return. It helps the public to know their monarch has the same hopes, fears and wishes as they do.
"The Queen wants to give words of comfort to those affected but is still discussing whether it will be appropriate."
Maddie will have been missing for 236 days when the Queen broadcasts on Christmas Day.
A Palace spokesman said last night: "We cannot comment on the contents of the speech."
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
gotta be spin that
Lynn
· 1 year ago
lets hope it is
queen wont do herself any favours here if she mentions Madeleine!
Of all the cruel and unusual headlines generated by the McCann case, it is simply the cruellest; Madeleine, we learned on Friday, could be "home for Christmas".
They were words of hope, untainted by the horror, grief and controversy occasioned by her disappearance. Contained in them was the promise that the four-year-old was just days away from being reunited, safe and well, with her parents. For the first time in seven months, I found my support for Kate and Gerry McCann wavering.
Journalistic hyperbole was not to blame for the happy-ever-after headline. The words accurately reflected claims made by the private investigator hired by the McCanns. The couple turned to Francisco Marco in September, after they became arguidos themselves and feared the Portuguese police were no longer pursuing anyone else in connection with their daughter's abduction. advertisement
"I have always said publicly Madeleine is alive," Marco told a Spanish newspaper. "God willing, I hope she'll be back with her parents before Christmas." He knew who the kidnapper was, he added.
It wasn't Señor Marco's first offence. Last month, he assured us that he would find Madeleine "within five months". Next, he was telling CBS television in America that his agency, Metodo 3, was "100 per cent sure she is alive". Then he popped up on BBC1's Panorama, claiming that he knew who the kidnappers were and that "we are very, very close to catching them".
It is not the strategy one expects from a professional investigator, but discretion is not one of Señor Marco's attributes. The head of the "family-run" Spanish agency - a bizarre concept given the nature of their business - he relishes media attention. He courts the kind of sensational publicity guaranteed to have any kidnapper or paedophile heading for the hills.
Marco claims Metodo has returned 23 missing children to their families, though details of these successful cases have not been forthcoming - so far - despite requests from British journalists.
So why do the McCanns still believe Metodo 3 can deliver? The couple have suffered hellishly at the hands of a police force of such astounding incompetence that Clouseau would blush. Now, £50,000 a month from the Find Madeleine Fund is being paid to an agency which promises much and delivers little.
Following Señor Marco's latest claims, the McCanns issued a statement reiterating their confidence in Metodo's "operational capacity" to find Madeleine. At the same time, "sources" close to the family let it be known they were not entirely happy with the "level of certainty" Marco was expressing.
Kate and Gerry are intelligent people, doctors trained to deal in facts and probabilities, to face the reality of a diagnosis and deal with it. Their apparent refusal to accept, in the absence of a body, that their daughter is dead is, I suspect, for public consumption only.
In private, I'd be surprised if they persisted in denial. However, they also know that if they acknowledge the likelihood of her death publicly, then Madeleine's name will slip from the agenda, donations to the fund will stop, and all hope would truly wither.
Did the McCanns ever expect Metodo 3 to find her? I doubt it. But what the agency is doing, courtesy of its outrageous claims, is keeping her in the news. Was it only coincidence that Señor Marco's remarks emerged two days after claims that police in Praia da Luz were to abandon the case, and that the seaside town that has been at the eye of the storm since May 3 was ready to move on, too?
Faded posters and photographs of Madeleine are disappearing from around the resort, as are the symbols of hope we became familiar with during the long, painful summer - the candles and the now bedraggled green and yellow ribbons.
I don't blame the McCanns for their desperate attempts to keep Madeleine in our minds. But the latest twist in the saga is unsettling. The Find Madeleine Fund was set up to do what it says, to discover what happened to her and bring her abductor to justice. Any surplus is to be used to help the families of other missing children. Instead, it appears to be funding publicity stunts.
"Home for Christmas" is such an evocative phrase, expressing a sentiment that most of us subscribe to. In Basra last week, the Prime Minister sympathised with those troops who would "not be home for Christmas". We all do.
Linking Madeleine to this cosy celebration of family life highlights the fresh agony Kate and Gerry face over the next two weeks. Last year, their beautiful little girl was there to help decorate the tree with her brother and sister. This year, short of a Christmas miracle - which is what every sane person prays for - she won't be and it was wrong to suggest otherwise. The McCanns should think again about Señor Marco.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
This bit is extraordinary:
"So why do the McCanns still believe Metodo 3 can deliver? The couple have suffered hellishly at the hands of a police force of such astounding incompetence that Clouseau would blush. Now, £50,000 a month from the Find Madeleine Fund is being paid to an agency which promises much and delivers little."
They can hire and fire the M3 at will - even in this they want people to think they are victims!
Jose
· 1 year ago
The McCanns have said today that they have no intetion to fire the M3
"The McCanns are still confident Metodo 3 are doing a good job and have no plans to sack them before their contract runs out."
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
This poster on Mirror reckons they are going to sack M3.
Am I getting super cynical or could it be that they deliberately hired the worst agency knowing the would fail very obviously then they would have someone (apart from the PJ) to blame for everything.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Funny how they answer every query through the press.
A close friend of the family said: "It's not helpful and we have told them that. They have been told not to do any more interviews."
Well, finally it seems that Team McCann realized their propaganda is counter productive.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Yes they probably read all the reactions in the comments pages of the newspapers. If they are paying them 50k a month then if they really didn't like what they were doing they would have sacked them by now.
Jose
· 1 year ago
In the Spanish newspaper, El Diario Vasco, the director of Método 3, Francisco Marco dismissed his statements published yesterday in the free Spanish newspaper Metro. The information has been reported yesterday in the British press. And this morning the same information is reported in Portugal in the Correio da Manhã and in the 24Horas. The Correio da Manhã reports that Francisco Marco knows who took Madeleine and he knows that she is somewhere in the north of Africa or in the Iberian peninsula. The 24Horas reports that Método 3 is not sure that Madeleine leaved Portugal but nevertheless she could be far away from the Iberian peninsula or from the north of Africa. However, the 24Horas is confident that Método 3 will probably grant the reward of £ 1.5 million if they find Madeleine as promised.
Another information, reported from a newspaper to another, from a country to another, without taking the necessary time to verify the information itself.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
lol. just seen josés pic!!!
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Can the real jose please stand up?
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
Woah! The comments after the Daily Mail piece are withering in their contempt for this article...it seems to have made things worse for the Mccanns not better!
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Looks like Clarence needs to revisit his strategy - anti-McCannishness seems to be universal Germany, Bangkok goodness.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
I'm interested in this points system. Is it like the Eurovision song contest? Or do we get extra points for wit or perspicacity? Top points for actually solving the crime?
stevehuff
· 1 year ago
Depends on what others think of your post. You can totally ignore the points, though, if you wish. Other readers click, so it's good insurance against being too antagonistic.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
So we attribute points to people's posts? or do we click on it?
stevehuff
· 1 year ago
There should be two little arrows, up & down respectively. Click the up to vote up, down for down. Seems like the arrows don't get applied to threaded replies such as the one I'm making now, though.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
I see what you mean. I just had a practice on Jose's post below...
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
The profile bit is fun! Thinking of changing my user name to Dolly Marple or Parple...
Jose
· 1 year ago
The SoSMaddie website reports that the British Prime Minister, Gordon Brown has used his presence in Lisbon to talk with the Portuguese Prime, José Socrates about the McCann case:
The exact content of the conversation has not been revealed but a source close to the Portuguese Prime Minister has taken the initiative to discuss the subject. "Officially, this conversation would probably be dismissed but the fact is there: It's really Gordon Brown who took the initative to discuss the subject", confirms the same source even adding: "When will they understand that it's a matter that concerns the police and the Justice. The Politics has nothing to do with it".
Jose
· 1 year ago
Correio da Manhã:
Damaged vehicle subjected to expertise in Portimão PJ paid repair of the car of Murat's mother
The van of the mother of Rober Murat, Jennifer, has been repaired at the expense of the Judicial Police (PJ). This vehicle has been damaged during the expertise, that happened at the beginning of August, in an underground park near the Criminal Investigation Department of the PJ of Portimão.
The van, a green Volkswagen Transporter, was one of the 12 cars involved in the procedures promoted by the PJ on August 6. It was given back with a paint scratch. On Thursday of last week, Rober Murat returned the car to the PJ and he took it back, repaired, last Monday.
The repair should have cost 400 euros. "The situation has been resolved and the PJ has acted with total honesty", has commented Francisco Pagarete, lawyer of Murat, formal suspect in the inquiry of the disappearance of Madeleine.
Meanwhile, Jennifer Murat accuses the McCanns of marking her family's lives a misery because of the suspicions that the friends of Kate and Gerry raised about his son. The British woman of 71 years even says to she wishes that "the McCanns had never gone on holiday to Praia da Luz".
This happens just before the dectective of the private eye agency, Metodo 3, Francisco Marco reports to the British press that he knows who took Madeleine and she would be rescued from her kidnappers in North Africa or the Iberian Peninsula. She'll be back with her parents before Christmas, he said.
Also the mayor of Luz, Manuel Borba, accuses the McCanns of "extreme negligence" for having left their three children alone at night.
A source close to the Find Madeleine Fund said they “desperately hope the reports are true” but doubt Mr Marco will deliver on his Christmas pledge.
She said: “It would be fair to say that among some people involved in the search for Madeleine there is a growing concern about certain remarks made by the private detectives.
“It also is fair to say they don’t appear to be the most private of private eyes.”
Jose
· 1 year ago
The Times has been told that the Metodo3 agency believes that a resident of Praia da Luz had been hired to identify suitable girls for abduction. The man is alleged to have been seen taking pictures of little blonde girls in the town for several days before Madeleine was abducted. The “spotter” is then alleged to have monitored Madeleine’s movements and discovered that her parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, left their children alone each evening when they went out to eat.
It is claimed that a second man was paid to abduct Madeleine from her bed and to transport her to a gang. Mr Marco said: “In principle, we’re talking about paedophiles. It’s not a kidnap carried out for economic reasons.”
John (Uk)
· 1 year ago
I would like to start this thread by referencing spudgun's excellent post on the mirror forum.
You are right of course ARM with regard to the law. In the Rhys Jones case though I would find it very difficult to believe that the police, who have been investigating this teenager, his associates and family for 8 months in this highly sensitive case of the public murder of a young boy, would not have amassed an enormous amount of evidence to present a virtually watertight case. But to go back to your point ARM the cornerstone of the British Judicial system is that one remains innocent until proven guilty in a court of law which is not the stage we are at.
As regards the Shannon Matthews case I felt strongly from the outset that something wasn't right at all with the facts as they were presented - a similar but different feeling I also have with the McCann case, of course all this is still merely speculation in this real life, highly emotive, mystery.
Maddie's little brother and sister are learning to cope with their devastating loss by playing a game called Find The Monster Who Snatched Her.
And three-year-old twins Sean and Amelie are also playing a vital role in keeping their mum and dad focused, according to top criminologist Ray Wyre.
He told The People last night: "I think having other very young children has given Kate and Gerry the strength to go on.
"It must be hard for them because the twins are now almost the same age as Maddie was when she was taken.
"But they are clearly a bundle of energy and fun.
"They still talk about Madeleine and even bring her into their games."
Wyre went on: "Kate and Gerry told me they were sitting together the other day when the twins rushed into the room screaming and shouting.
"They asked what they were up to and the twins told them they were going to go and find the monster that took Maddie.
"Then they dashed off to play the game."
He added: "Of course, it's a very sad story.
"But it's healthy that Madeleine remains a real presence in their lives."
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
That article about the monster game is quite disturbing (if true). Not a good idea focussing kids fears in this way. Do they really know how to bring up children.
stanley
· 1 year ago
Is there any reason to believe that the story is not true? Nobody would make that up. What makes it worse is I am sure that Team McC will have approved the press release. I notice John you said "Do they really know how to bring up children" and whether or not it was deliberate, I do not know, but there was no question mark??!!?? This I would suggest means it was a rhetorical question. Not only did they leave the twins unattended with M. Gerry left them alone when he felt there was an abductor in the room. Then Kate left them alone after M was "abducted". Now they are being used in their parent's defence propaganda and money making exercise. This pair are sick people and Social Services should intervene now!
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Well ... I imagine them standing around a flip chart brainstorming stories to feed to the press. We have had a few about the twins who I believe are seen as a key sympathy winning element. While they have insisted on their faces being blanked out on TV they have not stopped at talking about them quite frequently (press, blog and so on). A while ago there was a press debate about if the kids should be told and so on.
I think children even at that age are entitled to the truth - as far as they can assimilate it. But there are many things in the adult world from which they have to be sheltered because they are not old enough to understand.
Anyway its another crass thing to add to the catalogue for the McCanns in my view. They are undoubtedly perplexingly odd people - or at least that's how they come across.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
I posted this on websleuths - cos I think this is at the heart of things now:
The newspaper 24 Horas stated that the fund is paying 75k Euros per month to Brain Kennedy for him to pay Metodo 3, this is 50k+ GBP or maybe 100k dollars ... for what? Richard Branson is paying towards the McCanns legal defence and Brian Kennedy is giving his solicitor Smethhurst 'free'. Obviously the fund is not being used for the the McCanns legal defence in any way, shape or form. So why is the money donated by well meaning people from around the world who want to help find Madeleine being cycled around in this strange way? Why is it paying such large amounts to what seems a highly ineffective detective agency? Who chose them and why? Even Clarence Mitchell doesn't seem very impressed.
Jose
· 1 year ago
The person who chose Metodo 3 is Brian Kennedy but it's clear that he has chosen a private agency that has no experience at all to locate missing children. That suggests that the main objective of Brian Kennedy was not to find Madeleine McCann. So why will he choose incompetent detectives for the job?
But it's also difficult to believe that the McCanns and the direction of the fund were not associated with this decision to hire these Spanish detectives.
Clarence Mitchell, the public relation spokesman of the McCanns, is still using the services of the British government despite having officially resigned from his post as director of the Media Monitoring Unit next to Gordon Brown. The accusation was made by a source from the Home Office who ensures that the resigned director has appealed to the former services to monitor several journalists, but also the behavior of Internet users on a list of forums and blogs considered to be "highly damaging" for the image of the McCanns and the British government.
Clarence Mitchell, a former journalist for the Daily Express and the BBC, was appointed by the Foreign Office as a liaison officer between the media and the parents of Madeleine. It was him who had arranged, through the respective British embassies, the visits of the McCanns to the Vatican, Madrid, Berlin, Amsterdam and Rabat.
The monitoring and the control of the media have become, since the first days, an important issue of the job of Clarence Mitchell. During the stay of McCann in Praia da Luz, it was him who decided to separate journalists on the basis of their nationality: first the British and then the Portuguese.
Today, the public relations campaign of the McCanns passes, more than ever, through the control of public opinion; in the last few days several forums and blogs were closed overseas because of comments "against the McCanns" . This happen to the Mirror forum that without any warning has erased all the comments concerning the case after some Internet users began to discuss the interference of the Home Office.
The Internet users, mostly British, have not given up and the exchange of comments are now done in an open forum called The Three Arguidos (The Three Suspects).
A spokesman for the couple confirmed they were in talks with US networks, but denied that any money had been offered.
"We have been approached by representatives for both Oprah and Barbara. They want an exclusive interview with Kate and Gerry," the spokesman told the paper.
"We are discussing it but it doesn't mean we are definitely doing it. Nothing has been agreed.
"There is categorically no truth to the suggestion that any sort of bidding war is currently taking place between American networks or American programs."
The couple would not be doing any sit-down media interviews while they remained suspects in the case, the spokesman said.
The Mail also reports that the McCanns are considering giving the go-ahead to a film version of Madeleine's alleged abduction.
Three-year-old Madeleine McCann went missing from a Portuguese resort while the family was holidaying over seven months ago, sparking a massive worldwide manhunt.
Authorities have recently released a sketch of a long-haired man who may be connected with her disappearance.
Dee
· 1 year ago
In other words, they will consider going on but not answer any questions about Maddy's disappearance...what would they discuss for an hour then?
POLICE have accused Madeleine McCann’s parents of putting out a sketch of her possible kidnapper in a bid to ease the heat on them.
Detectives have refused to back the couple�s decision to launch a worldwide hunt for the oddball seen prowling round Praia da Luz a week before Madeleine vanished.
They insist they investigated the sighting of the man soon after Madeleine disappeared and ruled him out.
According to Portuguese newspapers, police sources said the man was one of many drifters who tour the Algarve begging for money to finance drug habits.
They remain convinced Madeleine was accidentally killed in her family�s holiday apartment and that her parents disposed of her body.
Lynn
· 1 year ago
As you all know I still believe in innocent until proven guilty and try to make points for both sides, just watched a bit of the interview on ITV news at 10 tonight and the woman who saw the latest witness said she had a visit from this man begging for money and he was weird and was on the beach in the rain and she thought his behaviour was abnormal so she alone saw him twice. The next point I really wanted to make was that the artisits impression was from the same artist who did JT's sketch, coincidence??????? I think not.
Darn forgot my next point!"
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
They glossed over the fact that she saw him 2 weeks before Madeleine went missing. So basically all that links him with the case is the fact that they say her sketch looks similar to JTs - and JT's had no face! So what does this add up to? Nothing at all.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Could it be possible that the man that Mrs Cooper saw has a link with the disappearance of Madeleine McCann?
What is clear to me is that there is no evidence to sustain this theory. Do we know who he is? No. Do we know where he is? No. Do we know if he was at Praia da Luz, May 3? No. Do we know if he is a pedophile? No.
Jane Tanner said she was unable to see the face of the man she saw the night of May 3. Now she recognized a man described by Mrs Copper as being the man she has seen, the night of May 3.
What I conclude is that Jane Tanner lost her credibility. Her testimony has now no value. That's probably the unexpected consequence of the release of this new sketch.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Good analysis Jose. Not that JT had much credibility to begin with!
stanley
· 1 year ago
Quite John JT has never had any credibility. She must have heard George singing "I am the eggman, we are the eggman......" hence her drawing. Gail Cooper waited for the punchline "I am the walrus!!!!!!!!!" Hence the Zappatta upper lip. Great result last night John! About time too.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
I've sent an email letter to the PJ about inconsistencies between earlier reports and Gerry's statements in Vanity Fair.
If anyone would like me to post it here for you to read - I will.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Liz -Yes I was just reading your thread on MF - what did you say in your letter? Don't you think the PJ already know its all b/s. anyway?
lizbee
· 1 year ago
I'm sure they know John but sometimes I feel a bit crap about pontificating and not actually doing anything with it. I guess this is my way of making myself feel better that I put my thoughts in writing and sent them to the investigation team. I'm not expecting a reply.
If you want I'll post the letter on here tomorrow, must go to bed very soon, thanks for your interest :)
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Liz - Yes I'd like to read your letter. Glad you are trying to do something and I understand how you feel about that.
Jose
· 1 year ago
The McCanns made two announcements today. First, no film will be done if Madeleine is not found dead or alive. The second and more interesting, they are again willing to return to Portugal. When they say they want to return to Portugal, it means in fact that they know that the rogatory letters about their interviews has been sent to the British Authorities through the Eurojust.
They will return after the "D-Day" of April 11 - when they supposed that the three-month extension of the secrecy of justice is up, said a friend of the McCanns and he added "they believe investigators do not have the evidence against them to bring charges, and their presence in Portugal would embarrass them."
What the Portuguese press did report is that the Portuguese Police has enough evidence to charge them right now but the British police said that they will get a better result if they perform the interviews of the McCanns and their friends in UK. This is something that the McCanns and all their friends are not willing to accept.
The Portuguese lawyers of the McCanns will not have access until the end of the inquiry and the McCanns, Clarence Mitchell and their friends know this fact perfectly.
But Clarence Mitchell said: "To our knowledge they have no forensic evidence against Kate and Gerry."
This is another desperate attempt to discredit the Police, perhaps the most cynical and hypocritical statements that Clarence Mitchell made to suggest that the Police has no evidence against the McCanns. Off course he has is no knowledge of the evidence. For the good reason that the inquiry is still under secret.
And everybody knows that the Portuguese Police will not interview anybody in Uk, it's the British Police who will perform the interviews according to the requests stated in the letters of appeal if the British Authorities give their agreement.
Jon Corner knows the truth about what happen to Madeleine: "Madeleine was snatched by a calculated group of criminals, we are sure of that", he said but he did not present any evidence to sustain this theory.
Besides he is also fearing that "the vital clue that would lead them to Madeleine is sat on a desk in a police station in Portugal gathering dust".
He said that the McCanns are frustrated by the failure of the Portuguese police to follow-up potential leads, but not a word about the failure of their private eyes, Metodo 3, who said that they knew that Madeleine was alive and they knew where she was.
I am more and more frustrated by their attitudes. I will not say that they are cynical cowards for not going to Portugal at once or innocent hypocrites for not helping the Police. I will not say that they are parasitical suspects as a senior officer of the PJ suggested they were. I will just say that this is not a poker game between the PJ and the McCanns. There will be no winners. What is under consideration here is truly the truth about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
stanley
· 1 year ago
The link below is from the Mail. The article itself covers stuff we have already discussed, it is the 124 comments that follow that are of interest.
Of those 124 approximately 103 are anti-McCann 18 pro and 3 neutral. Nothing new there! However it is the language employed by the pro lobby that is fascinating. None of them let the facts get in the way of a good argument. They do not focus on the MCanns and in fact few mention Madeleine. They all vent hatred, and I have chosen that word carefully, at those who dare to criticise team McCann. The most oft used words are, nasty, disgusting, cruel, negative, tragic and suffering. I think all 18 letters contain at least one of these key words and some contain all. Is this the McSpinn? Are these people being paid for writing and if so by whom? The fund? If so no wonder it is running out. This amount of spleen and bile do not come cheap. You would think though that they could at the very least vary the point of attack and supply each with a pocket dictionary and thesaurus. We used to joke when I was young about letters sent to the Times signed, Indignant, Tunbridge Wells. I think indignant is alive and well and is now based in Rothley.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
As regards the fund running out: (Also from Vanity Fair)
'In the fall, for instance, it emerged that the McCanns had made two mortgage payments from the $2.4 million fund set up to find Madeleine.'
I have been on official sites a few times and I have never seen this amount in the fund update box. I did notice that after they were made 'arguidos' that the amount never changed but that at the same time Team McCann did say that 'money was still being donated' - so is this what it went up to? Note that this is not the 'reward money' that is pledged by celebrities and doesn't exist in any bank account as far as I'm aware, also this is not the money from Brian Kennedy as well... or is it??? There seems to be a lot of grey areas about this fund, specifically about how much is in it and what has it been spent on??
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
That's dollars so = 1.2m GBP - I think its approx the right amount.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Okay... point taken
lizbee
· 1 year ago
John the point taken post was my reply about the fund, sorry to those reading this flat!
blimeyhecks
· 1 year ago
Yeah of course they are being paid to write it. Jesus Christ. Are you being paid to write your bile?
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Hiya Blimey,
WB... By the way if you want to reply to anyone specifically, and I know you usually do, then you have to click on the reply under the post you''e replying to. That way when you choose threaded right at the beginning - posts will appear by replies in chronological order.
Happy commenting :)
Jose
· 1 year ago
Welcome back blimeyhecks what do you think of this new site? There is here a good site for you to look at.
stanley
· 1 year ago
Daily Mail again (sorry can't help being an old fashioned reactionary). Hidden away in the Ephriam Hardcasle daily column this little gem: "The annual BBC News and Sports Festival - a two-day orgy of back-slapping at White City, beginning next week - includes a Madeleine McCann seminar featuring oddball, white-suited ex-BBC reporter Martin Bell and the family's PR man Clarence Mitchell."
It is what we in the footballing parlance call 'putting yourself in the shop window'. This is when a player is discontented with his club and plays a "blinder" to get himself noticed by other teams. This also suits his present manager who will get rid off him for an increased transfer fee. John, Bergatov (sorry probably wrong spelling) comes to mind.
So is this orgy of self congratulations and back-slapping mean Clarence is preparing to move on? I have to admit, looking at his career objectively, if the McCanns were now charged his c.v. would be enhanced. The wisdom would be if he could hold Team McCann together and spin for them during all their problems he could probably get the Church Times to give Old Nick a fair shake. Or am I being totally cynical?
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
If he jumps ship that certainly will be the end for team McCann, he has been on board from practically the beginning as witnessed by photos on the other place from 4/5 May. He is clearly a shrewd man and will I think get his timing right since that's what he's all about. If he goes too soon then it would look like a stab in the back, too late and he looks gullible. My guess he'll do a better job that Berby who likes standing rather sulkily in an off side position too much.
stanley
· 1 year ago
Yes standing rather sulkily in an off side position my god it's Gerry!
Lynn
· 1 year ago
Dear me, I just think that Clarence was thinking omg cut me off cut me off!!!!
Is it just me or do the McCanns not do the right thing!!!!!!!! I mean, sorry to say it again but they do!!!
Typical example, they have a MEETING with a FILM company to discuss making some sort of film, WHY WHY WHY!!! He stated (CM that is) that they are going to do something, a movie etc WHYYYYYYYYYYY I mean my God if it were me I would be saying F*** off you what the hell do you think we are etc etc. I just think they should be angry about people even considering it, rather than litening to it!!!
Interesting though that CM went on Talk Sport, I am thinking he is trying to get down with the people!!! I think he is looking for his get-out, he was also on Richard and Judy yesterday, he is going on "people" shows because i firmly believe he is starting his get out campaign and become the "victim" in this situation.
I also think that he hasnt left his Government post I think within the next few months he shall be getting back to his old job, at the end of the day think about it who in their right mind would leave their government job to front Team McCann. I also think the government chose him as they thought this would be an ideal opportunity for votes and finally I also believe CM and John (the interviewer are v good friends) They apparently used to work together!!!
Jose
· 1 year ago
Lynn, if Clarence Mitchell is doing his get out, do you think that he will write his own book about Madeleine?
stanley
· 1 year ago
@ Jose: No way Jose. Gosh that rhymes! If Clarence is to write a book it will not be about Madeleine it will be about the brilliance of Clarence Mitchell. One of the truly epic titles for a book was from the late, great Spike Milligan.
ADOLPH HITLER My part in his downfall By Spike Milligan
The title kind of grabs you.
Madeleine McCann My part in the cover-up by Clarence Mitchell
It kind of gives the show away don't it.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Or the title could be the same of the conference he has given to University of Coventry:
Madeleine McCann: The Perfect PR Campaign by Clarence Mitchell
With a preface of John Mair, the organiser of the Conversations who said:
“Clarence did a splendid job of getting the 'Missing Madeleine 'message to millions. How did he and they do it? I am sure it will be a fascinating talk and extremely topical.”
Lynn
· 1 year ago
I think it will be something more like:
Clarence Mitchell "Used and abused, the innocence of a saviour"
He will of course write his own title. Or perhaps more crudly it shall be CM - So far up my own arse I can tickle my own tonsils!!!
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Point for you Lynn for that title.
stanley
· 1 year ago
I have, as is usual with me, left a rant on Allison Pearson's comment page. It has not yet been published, we shall see. The main point here is not so much the obviously xenophobic "blood stained lies" or even the slavish worship of 2 doctors, as say against 2 chavs who abandoned their offspring. It was the line "there is still not a shred of evidence linking her parents to her DEATH"
This was not a posting on an obscure website inhabited by Troll Team McCann, this was written by a "respected" columnist in one of our largest selling and informed newspapers. Similar to the piece written by Simon Heffer in the Telegraph in so much as when the word Madeleine is written all objectivity seems to fly out the window. Why? I have asked Ms Pearson to report M's demise to the police as obviously she is privy to information that others do not have. How can the editor of the paper have allowed this drivel to be published? I thought the same with the editor of the Telegraph. It would appear that when it comes to reporting the McCanns the crossbar is lowered to the extent that not only is racism ok but also statements that have no similarity to actuality. John I am beginning to believe as you do in government involvement and that I find really scary.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
I believe in Govt. involvement in the sense that they tried to use this story to gain popularity as they expected an early election. However as with much to do with the clunking fist of Gordon Brown its all been a bit cack handed (e.g. Thatcher at Downing Street, David Beckham also), as they all look back to Harold Wilson and the Beatles and the white heat of technology b/s and think they can make us believe that they are popular. Also there seems to be some concern about when the sh*t hits the fan because where it will fly. It is possible that CM is there to minimise damage after Socrates told GB to back off cos the PJ had hard evidence and it was only a matter of time. But I do not believe that the Govt. care any more about the McCanns than they do about anyone else ... i.e. no conspiracy/freemasons/cloning/Da Vinci Code/Argos catalogue as an encrypted alien technology transfer in the form of sub standard toasters shock ... sorry but I have been on the Mirror Forum again.
Well done for responding to La Pearson - I tried to this morning but kept getting bounced out.
Maggie
· 1 year ago
I've no idea what happen to the post I just made.
I'm finding this format just so difficult to follow. Good to be back though and I enjoy reading all your posts.
I won't be putting any money in an envelope and sending it the the stricken couple. Somehow, after Clarence's remarks I doubt the letters would ever reach their intended destination.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Maggie on the right hand side of the opening page you can choose either threaded or flat. Choose flat and it comes out the way it used to i.e. in chronological order, choose threaded and it goes by replies to posts in chronological order.
So choose flat and refer your comment back to the relevant post if that feels easier - that's generally what I do. if i think I don't know what the post is referring to I'll go back to threaded to check then resume on flat for recent posts.
Hope this makes sense??
Liz x
Dee
· 1 year ago
Hi Maggie, Liz is right on...that's what I do to. I am still getting used to trying to make sure I click under the person's name and not at the top, and remember NEVER hit refresh when you are writing a post as it will disappear....but I like it. When you feel comfortable trying to post a picture someone will walk you though it.
Portuguese Police consider that they have enough evidence to charge the McCann and some of their friends, without the need of a new round of inquiries to the Tapas Group. However, it was suggested that the process of sending rogatory letters could achieve a better result, with the cooperation of British authorities, after the McCann and some of their friends rejected a suggestion from Polícia Judiciária to go back to Portugal and submit to another questioning.
The suggestion was transmitted through Leicester Police but the McCann legal team put as a condition to accept it that the status of formal suspect of Gerry and Kate should be lifted, first. Portuguese police justified the suggestion as a faster way of going forward with the investigation, avoiding a complex and bureaucratic process for a new questioning to take place in UK, with rogatory letters to the Home Office.
But informal messages sent from the British Government to Lisbon stated clearly that the best way to get a full cooperation from British Police, while charging the McCann, would be to follow a more time-consuming process, in order to guarantee that it would take, at least three months to achieve it, as Gordon Brown fight for political survival can have him facing elections early than expected.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Not sure I believe the Gordon Brown bit - he doesn't have to have an election for a couple of years. No reason for the PJ to rush - the McCanns are not going anywhere and the wheels of justice grind slowly.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Clarence Mitchell was on Radio 5 last night talking about the movie thing, it was actually quite masterful the way in which he criticised the press for exaggerating the movie story and so on. He was able to paint a picture of continuous speculation and exaggerated stories and how tiresome this was, and also how they may sue the Express and so on. The interviewer completely fell for it in that he didn't realise that most if not all these stories have been coming from him anyway. A total smokescreen for the blood results and the resignation of Esther McVey and others from the Board. Its really quite clever but rather frightening and I am really quite glad in a way that this case has opened my eyes to this sort of thing.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Did Clarence Mitchell talked about a movie or about a documentary as Gerry said in his blog?
When I read the first sentences I thought that Gerry was saying that Clarence Mitchell was a liar.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Someone's rigged up a Murat/Payne identity parade:
if you want to tell them apart ; clue, one of them is sweaty, squinty, shifty, dodgy, sad and lonely with something to hide. Not sure which one though!
Lynn
· 1 year ago
Not guilty on that one John, but I really do see how someone could on a dark night after a few drinks EASILY mistake one for the other!!!
I too wrote and complained re: Don't holiday in Portugal I made reference to the Brazilians saying don't go to Britain after that tragic shooting, police weren't exactly competent there now were they? The report clearly pointed blame BUT I did state the PJ like our police are only human and sadly errors occur.
None of them are Robocop!!
lizbee
· 1 year ago
I agree with Lynn, a few imbibes of your favourite tipple, poor lighting and not looking properly and it's possible that they could be mistaken for each other.
Not my type though - either of them ;)
Lynn
· 1 year ago
The reasons for doctoring -excuse the pun- any form of picture is to put something there that wasn't there before or to hide something you dont want to be seen. In this case though I wonder if it is just simply a case that the elbow looked odd so they just edited it out, can't it be that simple??
I do think on a few pics it looks like Madeleine has been added, there was one I saw of Gerry and one of the twins at the pool and Madeleine was there but the shadows etc looked like she was just simply plonked there, again I shall say, with this case, who knows, I think even Sherlock Holmes would have his work cut out in this case.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Rogério Alves, lawyer of the McCanns, appeared yesterday night in the news of RTP.
Concerning the fact that the process could be public at the end of the secrecy deadline, January 14, he explained its legal meaning:
"That is, [the process] could be consulted by the formal suspects, by the complainant, by the assistants but by who is implied in the process. It does not mean that it is open to the public. It is open to the intervenants namely the formal suspects".
The Public Prosecution has presented the request to declare the process as being of an exceptional complexity. So it would remain secret until April 14 if it is accepted by the judge.
Rogério Alves said "the Public Prosecution should explain that it will not be premature and could put into question the inquiries or a segment of the inquiries could be endangered by the fact that the process is now open to consultation namely for the formal suspects".
As to the fact that the secrecy deadline could be renewed for another three months if the crime is qualified as a crime of terrorism or high criminality, he said : "In my opinion it does not apply to this case".
Dee
· 1 year ago
I'll take a stab at this:
* Lynn because Maddy was supposedly not on CCTV footage going or from the cretche, then it doesn't matter what the nannies say or if she was signed in. * The body wasn't moved by the scenic 25 days later. But contamination occurred due to sports bag, that was disposed of later. To me that is a no brainer, except "when" was the bag found? * G could have moved the body when he was supposed to be playing tennis, but instead was miles away. So there must have been a car. Will the person deny giving G the keys? I doubt there was a a need to move the body at all from the final resting point, so if true to need to embalm, etc. * Twins were probably sedated on May 3rd.
This is where it gets tricky, the theory on how did she die? * Possible it wasn't Maddy crying for 2 hours, could have been one of the twins & Maddy could have been dead when they returned?
* Possible if they were summonsed back from the restaurant they were embarrassed and angry. Perhaps gave Maddy a sedative then, accidental overdose due to intoxication and anger?
* Possible accident she was hurt and they knew they was nothing they could do, or tried to treat her themselves?
* Possibly she was hit by K&G when they arrived back in a rage?
We have heard a shower curtain has been found, a bloody towel and (I forget that one John) a syringe.
What I don't see the need for; is them all having to be involved, except perhaps on the regular checks & JT (I believe is in the know). ROB probably didn't move the body as G probably had done that at 4:00, but he probably knows too. If there is no big secret that they all have to keep except for the regular checks, I feel one or more will fess up to "no checks" and be asking for a deal. CCTV's don't lie and no amount of getting stories straight will help that situation.
What are your theories?
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
I have always thought that the contamination in the Scenic must be from things in contact with body, not body itself. Of course we could speculate if she was buried somewhere quickly that day then someone returned later to remove whatever she was wrapped in. Fairly clumsy really - but I suppose they though that three weeks later would be ok.
I don't think Kate hit Madeleine because then the guilt would be so extreme - I think she fell over when unsupervised or something - i.e. a genuine accident.
Dee
· 1 year ago
Yes John re the lst paragraph I have said this too. A genuine accident makes the most sense, but there still has to be a possible negative scenerio or negligent actions on their part or there would be no need for a cover-up.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Negligent enough if it happened while they were at Chaplins.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Thanks for getting us back on topic Dee, I don't think any of us really believed that they were peodophiles or had killed her in cold blood, no way for me anyway, if they were/are involved it had to be an accident and in circumstances that would leave the parents & others in the group in dire jeopardy of LOSING EVERYTHING!
A source from the Public Prosecutor's Office confirmed today that a request to extend the time limit for the case will be filed, before January 14, eight months after the first formal suspect was named. According to the Code of Criminal Procedure, after eight months the Public Prosecutor's Magistrate in charge of the case must bring charges, dismiss the case or request an extension to complete the investigation.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Obviously this 'Coldwater" post on the dreaded M forum could be complete fantasy - but it has the ring of truth. I would be interested what everybody thinks:
A very interesting theory, I expect the second part of it to come out very soon due to the fact that a certain poster was chasing round at least three forums over Christmas (wasn't around much but spotted him in various guises with similar requests) looking for certain video or photographic evidence. No-one could help and that seemed in itself an answer for them!
(I backtracked on a couple of their earlier posts to see where they might be heading with this and found they'd also been researching preservation etc. So everything comes around?)
It's also a very plausible story if one can belieive the motive! the missing part (what I referred to as the second part earlier) is how on earth did they keep & dispose of the body, that I think is what is coming next.
But of course most of us will want to see what the PJ will do next, if these sources of said poster are to be beleived they must be close to the investigation?
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Lizbee - you say "him in various guises with similar requests" - I am fascinated by your web-detection, how did you know it was the same person? Is there a secret.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
No secret John, just to say that I saw the same request written in the same way by two different names on two different forums then in another forum the same name as in Mirror, I guess lots of people do that, or perhaps someone posting request (not quoted) on their behalf. But this person was defo on a mission to find all details pertaining to G's visit to UK on a certain date, there are no photos no news comments on that day only references to this literally flying visit on the following day. They have a theory about a different bag to the one which has been found... they believe that it was transported that day and is now in the UK.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Any way John we all give ourselves away by the way we write all the time, the more time I've had on the web over the holidays the more time I've had not just to read but to spot familiararities in the way two apparently different posters 'speak'. Some of this is not what it looks like and is just because two posters share the same viewpoint and are pretty loose on 'quotation marks' but all too often you get posters using several names and log ins, I've found it happens quite a lot on the busier forums like M forum.
Clues to a persons identity are around same mistake's (like this one lol), likes and dislikes, OR THIS, overuse of emoticons, por spilling, not using 'quote' , never remembering what they've said - What was that??, Only posting on threads, brown nosing 'friends' etc. We leave clues all the time, I actually worry sometimes that I'm all too honest and just me - all the time!
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Actually I've just remembered that a poster on here called AndyT became convinced that I was the same person as a Portuguese woman (can't remember her name) cos he had some software that analysed writing styles. I suspect your method is better because I am not a Portuguese woman ... I am an English cat! It was AndyT who was pushing the idea of pickling in red wine which I found a bit difficult at the time ... but after all this time I find the idea quite possible!
Dee
· 1 year ago
Ahhh...so now we know where the extra bottles of wine went, too easy! Oh geez...multiple personalities are coming to my mind.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
14 bottles remember!
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Aha!... you obviously don't just have that magnifying glass as a fashion accessory.
Lynn
· 1 year ago
I am lost who are we talking about? sorry I am referring to the post where John states Lizbee - you say "him in various guises with similar requests" - I am fascinated by your web-detection, how did you know it was the same person? Is there a secret.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Lynn - Liz said that she had seen someone posting asking questions on other forums in various guises ... I was just querying how she knew it was the same person if he/she was using different names.
Lynn
· 1 year ago
I guess with that theory John et al, as good as it is, is it plausible? I mean the decomposition, where would they hide her? Surely someone saw Madeleine, didn't I read somewhere that she had tea at the nursery that day? Going to go search for that story ( Ijust deleted a load of links re: Madeleine from my PC - typically one of them was something to do with that!!)
Dee
· 1 year ago
Absolutely fascinating...just finished every post, I couldn't keep up. Certainly seems plausible, have to digest it more. Gotta get back, I behind already! Thanks John.
Jose
· 1 year ago
It looks like the post in the cybersleuths forum. The same rumor that Madeleine disappeared May 2 and not May 3. Only a journalist with contacts with the Portuguese police could write this kind of story but why will it be written in forums instead of publishing it in a newspaper? There is something that doesn't add up.
Lynn
· 1 year ago
Hi John, I see your point, its really all such a mess, RM too is innocent until proven guilty yet the McCanns, CM and press all are responsible for the pressure he is under,. What I find interesting is that the PJ have all these secrecy laws yet were quick to name and shame Murat.
"CCTV footage from MW's reception proves that the TAPAS 9 were, for the most part, lying about the frequency of their checks. This is considered an attempt by ALL TAPAS 9 to stall any charges of negligence. The investigation team are also aware of the attempt within the May 3rd confusion to blur the actual time and circumstances of Maddy's disappearance. " From M Forum.
Is it true re:CCTV?? for if so surely they would get them back over to clarify things. In saying that, if they were tipsy, and I am judging them on my own standards here, I have no idea where I am sometimes let alone the time and if I were to guess I'd probably be way off,
I think Jose that perhaps this is just lies, spin, who knows, could be the McCanns spinning as they have alibi for May 2nd, only God knows.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Lynn - Murat was named by the press, particularly Sky News who started showing pictures of him straight away. The PJ did not name him until he became an arguido, so they did stick to their secrecy laws. Some say that Murat requested arguido status because he would get certain rights an dwould be able to see the evidence against him. And they did nothing to 'shame' him - they just searched his house and questioned him and his contacts - which is what they are supposed to do.
Jose
· 1 year ago
If you are in measure to prove that the PJ did name and shame Robert Murat then you should send this information at once to Francisco Pagarete (fpagarete-498f@adv.oa.pt) because this is a crime under the Portuguese Penal Code.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Correio da Manhã: Inquiry: Public Prosecution did not request the continuation of secrecy PJ maintains the homicide crime
Tomorrow, the Judicial Police will deliver an interim report to the process of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann where the crime is still qualified as a homicide crime. The detectives maintain that the minor child was accidentally killed by the parents who later disposed of the body. Gerry and Kate could still be accused of a false-crime report in asking for the help of the police to find the child.
In parallel and because that was the theory when Robert Murat was made a formal suspect, the process maintains the theory of abduction. A theory that was 'consummated' during the conduct of the inquiry, when the elements of PJ found evidence that points to the homicide crime. Because the British resident of Praia da Luz is still a suspect, the qualification of the crime as an abduction continues in force.
Tomorrow, the detectives will also deliver the Rogatory Letters to the Court of Portimão that should be dispatched to England by the week. There, it will be notified the questions that will be made to the friends who spent their holidays together in the Algarve with the McCanns and only after the PJ will consider to re-intervew the parents of the child.
However, the inquiry will not qualify the process as completed, reports the CM. "We can not do it before the fulfillment of the Rogatory Letters" said a source of the process.
This procedure don't imply automatically the maintaining of the justice secrecy. Indeed yesterday, the prosecutor did not request the extension of the secret and he could still do so tomorrow, the first day after the judicial holidays when the non-urgent processes (such as the case of the disappearance of Maddie) are returning to the tribunal.
In the first request to maintain the secrecy of the proceedings, the judge qualified it as a highly mediatic case without having at that moment registered the special complexity of the process. This could still be done tomorrow.
Lynn
· 1 year ago
I suddenly just had a reality check, I go on about justice being done and about trusting in the legal profession and about my feelings KandG are innocent yet I vehemently, as many others, disregard the "ability" of the PJ for the simple fact I have been swayed by media coverage of this case and the reported blunders by the PJ. Yet many intelligent men working on this case have stated and stuck by the theory and belief Kand G accidentally killed Madeleine. There has never been any glorification from the PJ that it was murder and gory details disclosed, they have simply stated that they believe through evidence and piecing together information (guesswork to a point, but isnt that what all police work is about to an extent) that Kand G were responsible for Madeleines death. I guess I have to hold my hands up and say I am sorry I have been swayed by the press and feel that the PJ aren't capable of solving this case and that they are lost as to which way to go next and are grasping at straws. I have always believed in the McCanns innocence for the simple fact that I personally felt that it seemed more likely, due to research about past PJ involvement, again reported in the press, that the PJ may be covering something up. I did not care for Amaral or his lack of ability in securing the crime scene and I think press, spin and my thoughts have led me to concur that the PJ are less than capable because they made crucial errors in the first place.
Therefore rather than conclude the McCanns are guilty, like many people in the UK and world I guess I thought it more realistic to think that the PJ made an error. I hope that this case is resolved and I hope that my writings help some of you realise why probably most people still believe in the McCanns. I for one still believe that they are innocent but now for the simple fact that there is not 100% evidence, yet, to conclude that they are guilty. More and more I do feel that this evidence will eventually arrive.
With regards to the showercurtain etc, any news on what happened to that yet?
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Hi Lynn - I think there's a big difference between believing someone's innocence and the 'presumption of innocence'. One is a conclusion based on a whole collection of factors including impressions and intuition as well as facts (of which there are very few as we have identified before). The second is a protection under law granted to everyone - even the most obvious and self confessed criminal is granted this ... it is a legal principle and not a factual one. I agree that the McCanns and everyone else (including our mate Murat) is entitled to be presumed innocent until a court has found them guilty. I think what has happened to most people, me included, is that we want to uphold the presumption of innocence but the behaviour of the McCanns is so irritating that we find it difficult to remain impartial. The way that they have quite publicly gone for Murat is I think quite nasty - if they have real evidence then they should give it to the PJ or failing that to the Leicester police rather than this attempt at trial by media. You could argue that they are innocent but badly advised, however this is also hard to believe given the number of highly paid lawyers and advisors that they have.
Maybe the fear of being branded bad parents and so on, the impact on their careers etc. has made them panic, and it is indeed possible that they have and are suffering from a huge injustice. However I just think they have only themselves to blame. I think it is their duty to co-operate with the PJ.
I think we all also accept that the PJ ay have made some errors in the investigation. But I doubt that there is any investigation in the world which could not be criticised in some way. I think that Amaral had decided that they were guilty and tried to apply pressure for a confession. But again he wouldn't be the first policeman in the world to try for this kind of approach. If they made mistakes it was not fully investigating the parents from the outset but even here there was huge pressure to go along with the pedophile/abductor line - and while it seems that there is little hard evidence for this its hard to prove that it is impossible.
Without the body the evidence is probably always going to be 'indicative' rather than 'conclusive'. And there are a number of loose ends: - shower curtain - bag found near airport - towel with fibres - syringe in bedroom - blue bag ???
stanley
· 1 year ago
@Dee Thanks for that there were loads of little blonde girls all over the place in Lanzarote. Average age 63 and hair straight out a bottle. I never thought that I would actually feel sympathy for Murat as I have always found him a bit of a strange chap, however I think it is for this very reason that people are suddenly having restored memory syndrome. I am now awaiting Gerry to remember that the last time he checked the children he did not just realise there was an abductor in the room but that it was Robert Murat. Of course wearing a long dark wig and light coloured trousers carrying a blue tennis bag that I have suddenly remembered I might have had which was just the right size to put a child in except for her legs that would be sticking out just enough for JT to see the pattern on her pajamas from 50 yards away in the dark. Of course I did not really believe there was an abductor in the room I thought it was probably a martian or maybe one of the 3 amigos. Oh what a tangled web we weave......
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Stanley lol, reminds me of a bizarre magazine we used to sell in my parents shop when I was little, I used to read it sneakily whilst minding the shop. I think it was called 'Ripley's Beleive it or Not' and amongst some very strange actual facts they'd have a few myths and conspiracy theories thrown in. By the time you'd finished reading it the boundary lines between fact and fiction were so thoroughly blurred you even doubted your own name. :)
Dee
· 1 year ago
Hehe, the sad part, Stanley it is almost as just as bad as you describe, the press for the most part is giving them respect; not asking tough questions and IT AIN'T over yet. I hope JT, ROB, K&G are interviewed last. I would like for them to be asked back to Portugal, just so they demonstrate their "true colors", but I doubt that will happen.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Stanley ... the sympathy for Murat is just a kind of tribute to all the efforts of the M3, CM and T3 + sisters and barri-sister to make him look so mean, squinty, shifty, sweaty and unlikable; as he cowered in dark doorways lighting up a Strand (because despite the fantastic love life he's clearly a sad lonely sicko), on his phone to the Russian mafia and doing deals with the Moroccan hill tribes and generally trying to subvert the moral standards of the western world. We need to honour the £50k p.m. and make sure it wasn't just money down the proverbial storm drain.
Dee
· 1 year ago
OMG John, that is hilarious...I am still breaking up!!
Dee
· 1 year ago
That's really interesting! I wish had I time right now to research that. I am "guessing" it will be all over the news for a few days and little blonde girls (sitings) will be safe. Can you believe it???
Jose
· 1 year ago
In The Sun, McCann spokesman Clarence Mitchell confirmed yesterday that the couple were aware of the January 3 deadline.
Francisco Pagarete told The Sun: “After eight months that is the end of the inquiry.
“He must be either accused or advised of the suspicions against him.
“If they postpone the deadline they will have to tell us why.
“The public prosecutor either accuses him or doesn’t. And that is what I am hoping will happen.
“We have not had any communications from the police since August. Obviously they have already cleared Robert, it is just a question of the deadline.”
Mr Mitchell said who has great sense of humor: "Kate, Gerry and their friends remain ready and willing to talk to the police".
Why the McCanns don't return to Portugal at once if now they are willing to talk?
"In the meantime our lawyers will continue to press for access to the police files, and to push for the arguido status to be lifted".
How could the Portuguese lawyers pressing to access to the police files if they were not notified of the end of the deadline and its postponing? And why did Rogério Alves said that their status will not be lifted until the end of the inquiry in a Spanish interview?
"They feel it is a huge distraction. While police are looking at them they are not searching for Madeleine".
How do the McCanns know that the Police is not searching for Madeleine if they say that all the lines of inquiry are open?
"As we go into 2008, they will be regrouping, with renewed energies, and focusing on the campaign."
Glad to hear that, when will they return to Portugal to re-focus their campaign?
Jose
· 1 year ago
Mr Pagarette told the Daily Mail: "After eight months that is the end of the inquiry, so a suspect must be accused or advised of the suspicions against them.
"The public prosecutor either accuses him or they don't. And that is what I am hoping will happen."
He went on: "We have not had any communication from the police since August.
"Obviously they have already cleared Robert, it is just a question of the deadline."
Madeleine's parents Kate and Gerry, who are the only other arguidos, should theoretically also be charged, released or told what evidence exists against them tomorrow. But it is believed the prosecutor has already granted an extension allowing a further period of secrecy for the investigation because of the "special complexity" of the case, reports the Daily Mail.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Found a copy of the Martin Brunt letter on another forum:
This is extremely odd and I'm copying it here before it vanishes into a black hole. No comment on its truth or otherwise, except that it could be a colossal windup.
New postPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:07 am Post subject: Thank You Report this post Reply with quote Dear everyone,
thank you for your contributions to this forum which are, in a way, the best type of investigative journalism one can hope for in this case.
I cannot speak freely here, so I will try to hint at what I mean by being perfectly open about the dark forces acting against me and many other reputable journalists as this tragic tale has progressed.
Before going any further, I would like to thank two forum members who've gotten closer to the truth than any journalist on the ground.
Lucian Deville and TheAuthor, you have my thanks, and please, take a bow. Without your work and incredible insight, many of us would still be in thrall to the daily briefings of Mr Mitchell.
However, I have news for you.
After the Christmas Day end of year report, I found myself under huge pressure, and, as a result, I have resigned from Sky News.
You will read about this in tomorrow's papers.
It seems the truth is anathema to those in power in this country and, consequently, those who control the various media.
I have the truth about this sad case, I know what happened on that tragic night.
There are ten other journalists who share this information, and it is indeed extremely disturbing information.
There is a futher tragic twist to what I have to tell you.
One of my colleagues, from my days in Midlands news reporting,who threatened to blow the lid on this, is dead tonight.
I now fear for my very life.
Please, please take to the streets on my behalf and on the behalf of all those who want the truth out in this case but are liviing under fear of death.
I shall return to this board in the near future to report more developments.
But as proof of my bona fides, there will be an announcement on Sky News at 3.30am claiming I have left the corporation by mutual consent.
That is a lie.
I will contribute to this forum occasionally over the coming weeks, but I implore all of you to mobilise, get out and away from your computers, and please lobby for the truth to be known.
Finally, I intend to reveal that Clarence Mitchell has one of his senior advisors contributing to this site.
I cannot reveal his name, but I can confirm he posts under the name gooner_no1, and he has been collecting data from all those who respond to his posts.
Please keep me informed if he posts again, I have a surprise in store for him.
Yours,
MB
It appears to have been a wind up according to Spudgun, but who the hell knows with this case?
Dee
· 1 year ago
Thanks Liz, I did wade over there (too late)...what a jungle tonight. Thanks for copying that, yeah...hinting at fearing for his life he chose to post on the forum, you got to laugh. Are some people mistaking April Fools with New Years. Tick Tock, but fun to read anyway, thanks.
No idea whether it's true... going back to find out!!!!
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Don't bother trying to access this it's been removed... within minutes!
It was supposedly a letter from Martin Brunt Sky News announcing his resignation due to having discovered some unsavoury truths in the case, most people think it was a hoax but it was removed mighty quick is all i can say... and it is a slow day on the net?
Dee
· 1 year ago
John I do find it interesting out of the Tapas only Payne has publicly stated he saw Kate & the kids, somewhere around 6:30 or thereabouts on the 3rd. Oldfield on the supposed 9:30 check originally said he saw, but then changed it to just "listened". Perhaps the others were never asked?
Jose
· 1 year ago
Good point Dee. Only the Paynes said to have seen the kids.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
It would be possible even to make your friends think they saw all the kids if they just popped in and they were al being made ready for bed. But it would make for one hell of a bit of acting. Otherwise we are to suppose the Paynes are in on the conspiracy - Fiona Payne was one of the three who said they saw Murat of course - which could well turn out to be a mistake or a lie.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Also I think that IF there is a conspiracy then JT and partner must be part of it yes/no. Which makes it + the Paynes so its all of them. Do you have friends who would lie for you in a situation like this? I don't. But then ... who wants to be my friend anyway (sniff, sniff, sniffle).
Dee
· 1 year ago
I still don't believe everyone is involved, that's why I hope there is a 2nd round of questionings. For instance Fiona could have been mistaken, Payne & Oldfield perhaps believe Gerry was innocent maybe afraid of the way things looked and said what they said? I really believe if asked the right questions they will be truthful. JT....good god, hard to come up with an innocent explanation. ROB was missing, etc. but we don't have any real statements from him, that I remember (which I have always found strange, but smart in retrospect).
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Hi everyone, Happy New Year. Peace, health and happiness in 2008 to you all.
WB Stanley glad you found us...
Re: PJ Yes I admit i was critical of them for not initially sealing the crime scene etc. But I feel I know much more now about the way they work and feel more sure about the professionalism of their investigation than I did back then and I don't know what more they could have done in this very challenging case.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Happy New Year, Lizbee!
Dee
· 1 year ago
Happy New Year Liz, Jose & Everyone!
Lynn
· 1 year ago
I find it difficult to believe she was killed on May 2nd, this would raise too many suspicions, the nanny being paid to say she saw her???? all a bit far fetched for my liking.
If none of the Tapas7 saw Madeleine on the 2nd I think one of them would have said so, I cannot believe they are all secretly involved in some child murder, I just really cannot comprehend that at all. No-one is that good a friend!!!!!!!!
Also I think RM was around and about after Madeleine went missing, well that is the impression I got, I think it was before she went missing he is disputing but I think he openly stated afterwards when he heard he went out to help looking that night - I could be wrong!!!!!!!!
With regards to the bag, again I believe this is significant but I find it hard to believe anything at the moment as it is the same with this case, lack of submission of evidence leads one to think once something is mentioned it is either spin or the PJ grasping at straws. As John stated there is so much untruth with news etc now I find myself thinking is any of this true, having worked in the media I know how much exaggeration and spin is put on things but now it is more of a case of is anything really true. As the news isnt copyrighted it tends to be a case of make it up and say it came from a "source".
WOOO HOOO Glad you are back Stanley, just hope some others find us, em but not all, naming no names lol
All the best to all of you for 2008, I wish you whatever your heart desires.
One last note, does anyone else see the similiarity between Payne and RM???
Dee
· 1 year ago
I do Lynn. Then you add an emotional state, dark, few glasses of wine...I think it would be easy. Fiona...who knows, but come to think of it wasn't it stated the women didn't go out, so where did she see Murat? I think it is more important that the locals who were there didn't see him, plus 2 police officers.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Happy New Year to everyone.
Lets hope for good news in 2008, or at least some real news!!!
Andrea
· 1 year ago
happy new year to all of you!
Lynn
· 1 year ago
Who was it who said there is no such thing as bad publicity!!!!!!!!!!
Wishing you all a happy and safe 2008.
I desperately hope for good news in the new year, hugs to Madeleine.
Also just noticed that there is a very similar resemblance between DOP and Murat, perhaps it was Mr Payne they saw not Murat.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Happy New Year Andrea!
Jose
· 1 year ago
Happy New Year John!
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Jose,
It's red top tabloid stuff, no-one with any brains takes any notice and given what we all know for certain about the media we should take it with the contempt it deserves. John's right you know the UK public don't all think and agree with this garbage.
I was a bit ashamed actually when I saw it in the list :(
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Universal doubt John, Clarence still on spin cycle Jose... It certainly is a whole new world when suspects in a missing child case presume to dictate through their 'ex' FO media spokesperson that they will only return to answer questions if their suspect status is removed - What the ****? How dare they?
I'm actually getting quite angry about this now - very unusual for me. I don't feel any empathy at all any more for them I'd just like the LARGEST BOOK ever to be thrown with full force straight at 'em and their souls can go to hell. They have shown the world what they are about and what we know so far isn't nice in the slightest, beggers belief what will come out next.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Nobody is asking to the McCanns to return to Portugal. The McCanns, Clarence Mitchell and all their friends are perfectly aware that their status will not be removed until the end of the investigation. They said that Madeleine has been taken, she is no more in Portugal, she is in Morocco. So why do they want to return to Portugal to bring her back if she is not there anymore as they want us to believe? This is so "ludicrous".
I think that at this moment, the McCanns are just hoping that they will never be interviewed in UK or in Portugal. They refused to speak to the Portuguese police in Portugal. They have the right to remain silent. I don't blame them for that and nobody should. But I just don't like to read Clarence Mitchell suggesting that they are going to "correct misconceptions". Indeed, they will probably speak to the Leicestershire Police but with the questions of the Portuguese Judicial Police. If they refused to speak in September, why would they change their mind?
Also, I don't think that the Portuguese Police will ask to the British Police to re-interview the McCanns without new strong evidence. And if they have this strong evidence, they will probably send an invitation to the McCanns to come to Portugal through a warrant of arrest.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
And this for me is the pits, i just hate it when people claim beliefs & attitudes they don't truly hold. I do actually go to church regularly as it goes to feed my spiritual focus rather than one firm doctrine, my children go to Sunday schooll and brownies and I actively support the local community and many groups. Did the McCann's before any of this?? Enlighten me please before I either reach boiling point or ROFclutching my sidesL after reading this latest from The Herald:
It occurred to me how it would now be impossible, in the absence of completely damning evidence (which may still come) for the McCanns to confess, supposing that they have something to confess. By using the fund in the way they have they have completely painted themselves into a corner. If they now said that there had been an accident then fraud charges would ensue. People might have accepted that Kate was mentally unstable and that Gerry was protecting his family and so on a few months ago - and felt some kind of pity. But now with the use of the fund for their mortgage and the 50k month for the M3 to generally confuse everybody with nonsense - how could they ever in a million years justify that? Fraud and an attempt to pervert the course of justice.
This case has undermined so much. Even when I watch the news about Mrs. Bhutto I ask myself "are those people really in Rawlpindi?", was she shot anyway? are the reporters actually investigating what is going on? Do I believe what I am being told? The philosopher Descartes talked of something called 'universal doubt' and that is the legacy of Madeleine for me at the moment. Thank god and Steve for the internet and this site so that we can at least find somewhere to discuss all this!?!
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Dee, I posted this on the M forum a few hours ago in response to a very pro McCann supporter's view that there was no evidence of wrong doing on their part and almost certain evidence of an abductor:
A few questions for you: Why was there no evidence of 'jemmied windows', an abductor or disturbance of any nature? Why do you think Gerry changed his mind and his account of his last check on the apartment re: what he said he did (a cursory check in early accounts then looking over Maddie etc.) and especially as regards an abductor being present - a detail added much, much later? Why did Jane Tanner's witness account about the abductor and her own movements that night change so much? Why did Kate give some rather strange accounts for why the cadaver dog went mental on sniffing her jeans, cuddle cat and her bible? Why was Gerry so very angry that the DNA dog was allowed near the Renault civic? Why did Gerry contact the FO before he called his own family on May 3rd? Why did all the early stories talk about Maddie's cuddle blanket that she wouldn't go to sleep without, then this was dropped in favour of the more photogenic cuddle cat and why did Kate wash this item of evidence that presumably still smelt of Maddie?
I could go on....[/quote]
And I genuinely could go on and on, I obviously don't know what actually happened but I am damned certain it wasn't any way near what they claim and I truly have nothing other than their neglect in leaving such young children alone and their media neediness against them, so far.
Although I must admit the fund has nauseated me from day 1.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Correio da Manhã:
Maddie's case Volunteers are doing searches in Morocco
Two hundred English volunteers linked to the group Helping to Find Madeleine are exploring the rural areas of Morocco in search of the child who disappeared in May in Praia da Luz
Taking advantage of the Christmas holidays, the group has distributed posters - more than ten thousand - in shops, restaurants and other public places.
"It has become apparent e-mail is great within larger towns and cities, but there are still a lot of people who do not have Madeleine's picture or the phone contact details to report any sightings or information", said a spokesman of the group, which is independent from the fund managed by the McCanns, to the newspaper This is Leicestershire.
Witnesses against MURAT
Two British sisters who spent their holidays at Praia da Luz in May ensured during an interview to the British police that they have seen Robert Murat near the Ocean Club on the night of the disappearance. Jayne Jensen and Annie Wiltshire, 54 and 52 years, revealed that the Briton had a "strange" behavior that night and the following day. The press reports that there are now nine [or eight] people who ensure to have seen Murat at the Ocean Club on the night of May 3.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Jose,
I've just read that the breaking news on Portugese local radio is that a child's body has been found in a remote farm building in a rural area; I just wondered if you have heard anything about this?
Jose
· 1 year ago
RTP did not report this information this morning. I found nothing in the press.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Thanks Jose... another false alert then!
Lynn
· 1 year ago
I think this is what is sickening about this case, not to mention the fact a little girl is missing but the links with the McCanns all the way = spin spin spin, really starting to test my patience. I want and I do believe in their innocence until I am shown something else but even for me I find this sort of constant (bullshit is the only word I can think of) rather damning and annoying.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
I agree Lynn, I had a friend visiting yesterday and I decided to ask her in a little more detail what she thought about the case, bear in mind that she is not normally interested in discussing news stories in any great detail. I was amazed how little she'd understood about how important this case is not just in it's own right but also in terms of demonstrating media, political and celebrity spin/manipul,ation. This case demonstrates all that is bad and unjust in many western societies: unequally delivered justice, narcissicistic ambition & poor parenting supported by the mass media in all it's forms, racism and outright prejudice of unfamiliar legal systems and processes, blaming the 'bogeyman' in this case swarthy foreign types with unhealthy obsessions rather than facing the McElephants in the corner, Money, Money, Money - self preservation of neglectful parents applauded & supported by high profilers from religious, literary, sport, business and politics; and especially downright bare-faced lying including manipulating witnesses to blame the most likely looking suspect close to hand. Needless to say my friend was aghast and asked whether I thought this was the tip of the iceberg not only with this case but with others, I had to say that '...sadly I believe that it is.'
Lynn
· 1 year ago
This is true, yet again with the tragic assassination of B Bhuto we are again seeing spin and the media reporting anything that anyone says just to say something rather than saying nothing until there is concrete certainty. It seems to be the case of the world today that the truth is the last thing on anyones mind. In changing topics I just want to say that I felt a great sadness that such a strong woman met such a tragic end, I hope this is not too damning for the women of her country, may she rest in peace.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Yes I feared for her safety after the last attempt, she was very brave and the fact that she represented a threat makes it even more important that her death is not in vain.
Dee
· 1 year ago
Liz good for you in speaking your mind on the whole sorts of this wide-spread (total) mess to your friend! This case seems to have made a mockery of everything as you so well pointed out. When things gets rough "you (or I) have" to make light of things; "McElephants" you say, I will fold and say "McWallets"; very sad but seems to be proving true in people's minds in my opinion and that is not our fault.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Dee i think it's important that the politically challenged folks in our society face up to what goes on behind the Clockwork Orange and I'm speaking as someone who twenty years ago was so wrapped up with her own life she didn't even vote! Well I have voted since that time and been more 'politically, socially and media aware' without it totally defining me.
It's important to take a great interest in the world around you and what shapes it without seeking gain for oneself. If you don't know about it you can't comment on it or change it with real efficacy.
Peace as always, Liz
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
A good example of very bad editorial commentary from the normally quite reliable Independent
"No one knows, either, whether the Portuguese authorities, faced with a barrage of criticism from the British media, went on the defensive, and for this reason backed its woeful team for far too long before eventually dismissing it. Even so, it took evidence that members of the investigative team were under investigation themselves, amid accusations that they had beaten a false confession of murder from a Portuguese mother whose child had died, before this happened. It had long been clear anyway that the officers had been briefing the Portuguese media against the McCanns, of whose own guilt they seemed, at times, to be entirely convinced. Many of these slurs, all of which have turned out to be inaccurate, were gleefully reproduced in the British press, however absurd, sensational or cruel they were. One thing is certainly known about this case; that the behaviour of the media, from its initial flurry of useless sentiment and empty self-righteousness, to its eventual vortex of cruelty, unrestrained gossip-peddling and indiscriminate supposition, has shown itself to be a frightening and pitiless mill. The course of this tale, as told in the press, has been godless – in the sense of its having no morality. Little or no care for what it is grinding, or who, or how, has been on display."
1) Amaral was not dismissed for incompetence, corruption or for the theory that the McCanns were involved but for speaking to the press when he had been told not to and for complaining that the British police were giving credibility to a bogus story about a Ocean Club employee.
2) The accusations made in the press about the MacCanns were not 'slurs' and have not been disproved.
The Independent should take a long hard look at itself. If it is going to criticise the media generally then it should put its own house in order first.
Dee
· 1 year ago
Well said John!
Jose
· 1 year ago
Leonor Cipriano and João Cipriano have been judged from having killed and disposed of the body of Joana Cipriano, daugther of Leonor Cipriano. Leonor Cipriano did never say that she had been beaten to do a false confession of murder. She said she had been beaten in Jail by people that were paid by some PJ detectives that were in charge of the inquiry of Joana Cipriano. Amaral was responsible for the inquiry and he has been accused to have cover up the fact that Leonor Cipriano had been brutalized.
During the inquiry and the process of Joana Cipriano, João Cipriano said I have done nothing wrong I just killed her.
This is why some detectives thought that Joana Cipriano could have been sexually abused.
Paulo Cristovão, one of the detectives of this inquiry, asked them more than 15 times where they put the body of Joana. They gave different whereabouts but her body has never been found.
What surprises me is the fact that the journalist admits that Joana Cipriano is dead. As a British journalist that is clearly proMcCann, he should have said: no body, no crime!
This paper is just a pure product of the wrong pro-McCann campaign that consists in discrediting the Portuguese Authorities. This is not a pro-Madeleine McCann campaign and this article is not a pro-Madeleine McCann article. This bashing attitude will not help to find Madeleine and it would not help to clarify what happen to her.
Lynn
· 1 year ago
It has been reported today in uk papers and on sky.com that others have spoken out about seeing Murat at the McCanns resort on that fateful eve when he states he was with his mum. This is deemed to throw controversy into his already unstable alibi, another twist, more spin, who knows but it now makes 8 people in total who place Murat at the scene when he categorically states he wasn't there.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Lynn,
The people who claim to have seen Murat all appear to have some connection with the McCann party though from my understanding. The latest two women were in the same tennis group as Gerry and reported their claim to Metado defectives... more spin against Murat? Who knows for sure. This was reported in the Mirror p.9 today.
DJ Shifty has a firm alibi for the 3 May. So that's that little distraction out of the way.
Dee
· 1 year ago
I had heard rumors of Gerry saying something like this, but never had the back up. This quote was from Aug. 24th and is one of those WTF, he said "WHAT"? statements:
"The one... (laughs) the slight positive that has come out of this is there is so much rumor of what did and didn't happen if your reading the newspapers or watching TV, it is really quite difficult to know what is true or not true."
I had never seen this interview. Is there an innocent reason why he would feel this way, because it seems so damning to me? http://tinyurl.com/ytrnw6
Glad to see you haven't left us ARM! Jose thanks for the links, I was waiting to be able to view it and it was very interesting.
Jose
· 1 year ago
The Mystery of Madeleine McCann videos: Sky News 24.12.07
thank you jose for posting the link, I just watched it, and must say, I am impressed by Martin Brunt s attitude of openness,there is no "scent" of lies and propaganda in it ...
Jose
· 1 year ago
Sos Maddie Website:
List of British pedophiles present in Portugal, disclosed after the disappearance of Maddie.
"We did not wait for this list to check the possibility of an abduction by a pedophile. What I don't understand is why their government waited for the disappearance of a British child to inform us of the identity of their citizens present in Portugal that are already known for pedophile activity", says an inspector of the Portuguese Judicial Police contacted by SOS Madeleine.
The latest news in the UK were reporting a list of 52 pedophiles of British persons with a connection to Portugal, that the police had received from the CEOP - Child Exploitation and Online Protection Center. In this list, there is a suspect that the police has been unable to locate until today.
"We have checked every known suspects for pedophilia activity that may have visited Praia da Luz at the time of the disappearance," says an inspector of the Judicial Police (PJ), stressing that "the first line of the inquiry that we have followed was the kidnapping. It was only after the arrival of the English team, in July, that things have changed".
"It's true that since the beginning, we have a lot of doubts about the involvement of the parents and not just because of their lack of cooperation, but it was the British police who have strengthened the line of the investigation that led us to consider the McCanns as official suspects", says the same source.
Several hundreds of potential suspects were interviewed and their alibis checked. This has been done in Portugal but also in other countries of Europe. The excellent collaboration between the Portuguese police and their European colleagues did permit to check several tourists that have been in the Algarve when Madeleine vanished. A special attention has been given to the citizens of British origin, given the important community residing in the Algarve region, but also in the other side of the border in Spain where the police has kept under surveillance for several months a Briton with a past marked by pedophilia activity.
Madeleine who was three years old at the time of her disappearance, does not match the profile of the child searched by pedophiles in general, as confirmed by Professor David Barclay, a British expert who said that the abduction for sexual purposes occurred generally with a child of eight, nine or ten years. A view shared by several other Portuguese experts but it did not prevent the Judicial Police to consider the trail of an abduction by a pedophile.
Rachel before Madeleine
Before the disappearance of Madeleine, Rachael Charles is the other only known case of a British child disappeared in the Algarve. Rachel, 10 years, lived with her mother and her stepfather in Albufeira. She vanished in November 1990. Two days after her disappearance, her mother, Carol Charles, received a phone call in English with a request for a ransom of 51 million escudos.
Three days after her disappearance, Rachel has been found dead. She had been strangled and her body abandoned in the middle of a pine forest.
After several weeks of investigation, a British man, Michael Cook has been arrested by the PJ. He was a friend of the family who took advantage from this fact to convince Rachel to enter into his car. The man had even participated to the searches next to the parents of the girl. Confronted with the testimony of the gardener of the family, Michael Cook has been tried and sentenced to 19 years of imprisonment. Despite an appeal to justice, the second court upheld the sentence.
Already at that time, British politics did mark their presence in the case: Robert Spink, a member of the House of Commons of the British Parliament did intervene to criticize the Portuguese authorities. Contacted by a Portuguese newspaper, just after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, the deputy says recalling the incident: "I was convinced that he was guilty, but I had an obligation to ensure that Michael Cook would have a fair trial", said Robert Spink. After a few years in prison and after the British intervention, the murderer has been released and he returned to the United Kingdom.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Her Majesty the Queen did not use her 50th Christmas message to talk about Maddie as it has been reported by The People. The Broadcast can be watched on the BBC News website.
Jose
· 1 year ago
The Mystery of the tennis bag, 24Horas
Yesterday, Sky News Online announced that the PJ was looking for a bag used to transport tennis-rackets where Maddie could have been put by an alleged British pedophile. Judicial sources eared by the 24Horas did not confirm this theory and they ensured that the line of the investigation is the same. That is: The McCanns and Robert Murat are still the main suspects.
Sky News adds that a British pedophile is suspected of having abducted Maddie. The PJ did not confirm the information and denies the existence of suspicions concerning an individual who allegedly could have abused a 12 years old child in the Algarve in 2005 and whose whereabouts are unknown, as it has been reported yesterday by Sky News.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Sky has also reported that the latest video appeal has generated more than 300 calls. Which in context doesn't seem like very many.
Método 3 "told the couple yesterday that they have had 347 calls to their hotline" since their appeal last week. A friend adds that it was a "flood of calls"!
I am glad to read that the Método 3 hotline is no more out of order so we will have again new false leads that would be reported as "crucial" or significant in the press.
Jose
· 1 year ago
In the Daily Mail, Vanessa Allen says that Kate and Gerry McCann will <a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=504512&in_page_id=1770&ico=Homepage&icl=TabModule&icc=picbox&ct=5 ">never give up hope of finding their missing daughter.
Jose
· 1 year ago
The Father Christmas of the McCanns, Método 3, did not bring Madeleine Home as promised. Do they still believe in Método 3?
What is sure is that Madeleine will not have the thousands of toys that people have donated to her.
Her toys were parceled up and sent to needy youngsters in Eastern Europe, reports the Daily Mirror.
"It would have been a shame if the toys had gone to waste. They've helped brighten the Christmas of a child who might have nothing.", said a family friend yesterday.
So even the family friends were sure that Madeleine will not come home today. Even Kate and Gerry McCann have sent cuddly toys left for Madeleine to orphans.
"Everyone who left something for Madeleine will now know" that Madeleine will never get her presents.
However "it has helped brighten the Christmas of a child who might otherwise have nothing".
Jose
· 1 year ago
Martin Evans has written an article published in the Daily Express entitled Case against the McCanns hit DNA test doubts where he explained the LCN technique "led to the collapse of the Omagh bomb trial". That's why the technique "known as Low Copy Number analysis" is "at the center of the controversy" of the Madeleine case.
He writes also: "It is understood that it was evidence produced using the technique which convinced the Portuguese police of the McCanns’ guilt over Madeleine’s disappearance".
It seems to me that the Portuguese experts of the INML, leaded by Francisco Corte-Real, have perfomed their own DNA test and they didn't use the LCN testing technique which is available in UK. It's the Portuguese analysis that have shown a DNA match of 15 markers over 19 with a sample collected on the boot of the Renault Scénic. So far, there is no official statement about the tests performed by the FSS. However, it is true that it has been reported that the FSS had performed DNA tests using the LCN testing technique.
Clarence Mitchell in the same article said "Officially we have never been told that Low Copy Number analysis has been used.
“Everyone talks about it but we have never officially been informed by the police that this particular sort of DNA testing has been used.”
But the most curious are the statements of "McCanns’ supporters" saying that "It is ridiculous to form a case against someone using evidence that is fundamentally flawed. The case against Kate and Gerry should be dropped at once".
The DNA tests are just used to identify persons. It's impossible to say that a person is guilty or innocent only considering DNA tests.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Jose - I think that the criticisms of the Omagh case are that the test was only run twice, that the sample was not handled properly to prevent contamination and that it is alleged that some of the police evidence was falsified to get a conviction. With the length of time that the Madeleine samples have been in Birmingham I find it very doubtful that these kinds of mistakes have been repeated. I would suggest that the PJ are being meticulously careful.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Diario de Noticias:
Missing bag of Maddie's father is the trail of the inquiry
The Judicial Police (PJ) is searching for months of blue tennis bag big enough to carry a small child that belonged to the father of Madeleine McCann. The news has ben reported yesterday by Sky News that adds that Gerry McCann ensured to the detectives at that time that it is has been stolen.
Remember that as the DN as reported five days after the disappearance of Madeleine, the Maritime Police led out searches between Lagos and Burgau, both at sea and on rocks and caves searching for the body of the toddler. Fishermen and divers were alerted at that time of the possibility of finding a bag "containing a body or evidence".
On the other hand, there is sill the necessity to eliminate as suspect a man that is in a list delivered by the British Police to the PJ with information about 52 British pedophiles that were in the Algarve when the toddler has been taken. Meanwhile, according to the British press, the Crown Prosecution Service (the equivalent of the Ministério Público) has ordered a new study on the value of the technique used in the Low Copy Number (LCN) method that amplifies small tiny samples of DNA in the Laboratory of Forensic Science Service in Birmingham in the aim to determine the profile of the suspects, victims or witnesses even where there is only a small quantity of biological material. The emphasis of the suspension of the LCN will raise discussion about mediatic cases. The doubts on the analytical method have been constant among the British scientific community and even the judge of a process relative to the suspected author of a bomb attack in Ireland nine years ago that had injured killed tenths of persons, has questioned the reliability of the LCN. This means that the forensic tests performed to the blood vestiges, hair, bodily fluids detected in the apartment and in the car rented by the McCanns in Praia da Luz are in danger to shoot down even before they are completed.
Andrea
· 1 year ago
Jose, how about the secrecy laws in Portugal - and now this leak with the blue bag ... What do you think, why do they make it public before they come to interview the Tapas 9 again?
The searches of the maritime authorities were made by their own initiative. It's not said that the bag is blue and it is belonging to Gerry McCann.
We have to wait for the comments of the Portuguese Police concerning the blue bag. I suspect that it's just journalistic misinformation.
As to the secrecy laws, the Judicial Police can do synthetic reports concerning their activities to the press, they can give information as long as it helps for the establishment of the truth and with the agreement of the officers responsible of the inquiry.
Dee
· 1 year ago
Jose thanks for the posts, very interesting!
Lynn
· 1 year ago
Ahhh my suitcase theory can in a roundabout sort of way make a welcome return, nothing is impossible and to see someone carrying a suitcase or bag on hols is nothing out of the ordinary.
It is interesting that all this was kept so hush and that Kate mentioned a bag yet again the fact the DNA results were inconclusive still no proof either way.
If as alledged by SKY news there is 1 british pedophile who the police haven't eliminated with links to the Algarve is it too barbaric of me to say name him, why protect him. This does infuriate me, the same with the two boys who murdered James Bulger (for those who don't know the case he was a 3 or 4 year old boy who was brutally murdered by two 10 year olds. These boys are now 21 and have been released from prison and given protection forever, no one shall ever know who they are). Why in this country and indeed in our world do we seem to forget it is the innocent we should protect!!!!!!!!!!!
Anyway on that note as Santa may already have visited some of you I hope he is kind and I wish you all a lovely time this Christmas, may all your dreams and wishes come true in 2008 and thank you to Steve for this site and to the rest for the interesting posts. I know we have had people like Nancy and BUT I have never felt "bullied" by the fact I feel they are innocent until proven otherwise.
Anyway for now I am off to start celebrating, Joyeux Noel.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Joyeux Noël!
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
I understand your sentiment Lynn but I can't agree with you about making the details of criminals or possible criminals public. I do not want to live in a world where bodies are strung up from lamp posts which is surely what would happen if the whereabouts Bulger boys were known.
In terms of the 1 British pedophile I believe what is being said is that 52 have been eliminated from the enquiry but one is still being looked at. In other words they have not established an alibi which puts him somewhere other than PDL.
Gem
· 1 year ago
Well Christmas for me is a time of emotion and reflection about my own world and others around the globe. Thankyou to everyone for your insights... Pinkdrummergirl, Lynn, Lizbee, Jose (more snippets about personality disorders and lemming effects please..).And others I haven't mentioned, .thankyou .I wish I could live up to my name!! But I am mindful of the following which summarises the up and down emotions for me( so far) : Andrea: ........""......Speculation without evidence does not belong here....""..... John: ...""..I don't know what to think..."".... Chanel: .""..But hasn't everything about this case been baffling?...""... Lynn:...""..You just simply cannot believe a word written by the press ..yet we all do sometime ..."".. Best wishes for the season and all and G'day. Gem Australia
Dee
· 1 year ago
Gem I am so glad you posted and shared your reflection as you pointed out "your own world and others around the globe", do you have anything relevant to add to the topic? Madeleine is missing...do you have any thoughts/concerns where she may be? If not, you seem to hit the wrong board here & spent to much time here on the wrong foot...because that is what this board is about. BTW this board will not be swayed by spin or junk...I believe that has been proven over time. Best wishes in the new year!
Gem
· 1 year ago
Dee. Yes, I can understand your cynical tone that I have little to contribute to your board . ...being that I find it impossible to add any insight to anything based on what is available in the media. Although, I do find visual / audio film footage of the Mccanns quite revealing ....I see a couple who are with-holding the truth. But as you well know ,even some of what we actually get to see and hear is subject to editing. This is my position on this matter, the Mccanns and their associates are holding back the truth, but I do not know what it is they are hiding. My anger at this concealment of truth is what prompted me to post. I hope you will excuse me for this as I realise it doesn't add to the discussion. As to where Madeleine is, I have no idea. I am concerned for Madeleine and also for the twins growing up with parents who are under scrutiny and suspicion. I am glad none of you are swayed by the spin. It is wise to be objective about some of the nonsense that is printed and televised, and I should heed this advice myself. I hope you all solve the case...without relying on anything you read or see in the media as being complete and factual...of course. There are some very fine brains on here, yours included. Of that, I have no doubt. Happy sleuthing.
Dee
· 1 year ago
Very sorry Gem, I took your previous post in a negative way, I owe you an apology. This certainly is a mind-boggling case and I certainly get wrapped and wound-up at times. Thanks for replying and correcting me. Cheers and may this case soon be solved!!!
Gem
· 1 year ago
I'm sure the Mccann's Christmas video will see a boost in donations to The Fund.
Jose
· 1 year ago
According to the Daily Mail, Marita Fernandez, "admitted yesterday that the agency did not know where Madeleine is."
She told a Spanish magazine: "If we knew where she was, do you think we would wait until Christmas to find the girl?"
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
Heres my translation of the Sos Maddie story:
Metodo 3 admits to never having known where Maddie was
"If we knew where she is, do you think we would have waited until christmas to find her?"
The statement is from Marita Fernandez, the mother of Francisco Marco, director of Metodo3, also the founder and administrator of the private detective agency which claimed, until yesterday, to anyone that would listen, to know the whereabouts of Madeleine and who kidnapped her. After several months of publicity campaigning, the Barcelona agency admitting finally that they never knew where the little British girl was, has nevertheless continued to recieve around 70,000 euros a month from the Find Madeleine fund.
Francisco Marco had, since the beginning of their contract, claimed to have a 100% success rate of finding missing children, but, an internal source from the agency, confirms that Metodo 3 has never tried to find a child since the agency existed: "missing people has never been our area of expertise. The only person that we have found was the spy Paesa and that was a stroke of luck for we were investigating a case of fraud and it turned out that the guilty party was a neice of Paesa". Francisco Marco, director of the agency, announced at the beginning of the month, that he would return Madeleine to her family in time for Christmas. Metodo 3's move to new luxury offices in Barcelona, raises questions as to how the agency has spent the 430,000 euros from the 6 month contract. The shocking claims of their director and the lack of obvious results, are some of the reasons that people close to the Mccanns have confirmed that the work of the Spanish detectives will be stopped in March, date when the contract with the couple is terminated.
Jose
· 1 year ago
I haven't found the genuine statements of Marita Fernandez. I don't know in what newspaper they were made. This information could be another manipulation.
Jose
· 1 year ago
I just found a old Spanish video of Marita Fernandez where she said that she knows that Maddie is alive. She also explained how Método 3 will find Madeleine.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Correio da Manhã:
The McCanns' couple re-ask for help to find their daughter The McCanns have recorded a Christmas video for Maddie
The McCanns have recorded a Christmas video at their home at Rothley, in England, in which they send a message to their daughter Madeleine, vanished May 3 in Praia da Luz (Algarve) and where they called for her return.
Talking to the little girl, Gerry and Kate underline that "our only Christmas wish is for you to be back with us again", asking to the toddler to be "brave".
"Madeleine it’s Mummy and Daddy here. Just know how much we love you, Madeleine. We all miss you so much. We’re doing everything we can, Madeleine, to find you", continue the parents that re-ask help to find so they can be all together with the little girl.
"At this time of year, when so many families are coming together we beg you to help us be reunited with Madeleine", say the McCanns and adding that it would "be the hardest Christmas imaginable" and they ask to any person who knows something about her daughter to put an end to their "despair and anguish".
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
The association of chief police officers in the UK has just announced the suspension of the use of Low Copy DNA. This is following a ruling in the Omagh bombing case where there were criticisms about the way the samples were handled. I wonder if this has any implications for this case.
Jose
· 1 year ago
The McCann case is under the Portuguese jurisdiction. Consequently I don't see what implication the decision of this association could have for this case.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
If the technique which has been widely used in Britain is discredited in some way then it might have implications - especially if the processes in the Birmingham lab are found to be unconvincing.
Jose
· 1 year ago
I am sure that it would be widely reported in the British tabloids that the DNA test performed by the FSS to the samples collected in Praia da Luz by the Portuguese Police are not reliable because the LCN testing technique has been recommend to be suspended by a Police association in the UK.
In the McCann case, the LCN technique has not given a different result from the other DNA testing technique, according to what has been reported in the press. For the inquiry, the LCN technique has not given anything new.
That could raise discussions among DNA experts if the results obtained with the LCN technique were different. But it's not the case. So I don't think that it could have an implication.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Its all about the interpretation of the results of course. The science may be exact but then you have to talk about what you can deduce from it. I hope that the length of time that the tests have been going means that the PJ have been insisting on the most rigourous of procedures. Anyway they have always said I think that the DNA is only one part of the complete evidence. However I suppose what worries me is that the defence will be able to throw up a smokescreen of reasonable doubt which just blurs the story by trying to say that this piece of the evidence at least is doubtful.
Lynn
· 1 year ago
With regards to the results and the issue of bodily fluids. I guess my concern has always been that bodily fluid (which professionals refer to) normally means the leakage of the fluid the body releases as it decomposes. I do not recall, I may be wrong, but I do not recall the description of bodily fluid being given as urine or blood, with regards to the Omagh bombing the use of LCA DNA concerned me as it does in this case too.
I was saddened yet heartened by people sending gifts to the twins and for Madeleine, puts in perspective how heart breaking this case truly is.
Dee
· 1 year ago
I so hope you are right Jose, thanks for the explanation.
Dee
· 1 year ago
I would think it would help the defense when the lawyers tear apart the DNA evidence to be able to say is banned in the UK. This is not good news!
Jose
· 1 year ago
Correio da Manhã:
Financiers of the fund dissatisfied with the Spanish agency McCanns does not want to renew their contract with Método 3
The McCanns seems to be less disposed to renew their contract with Método 3. The private eye agency contract, that links them to the McCanns, will end in March 2008 and until now they haven't presented any evidence that support the theory that the toddler, vanished May 3 in Praia da Luz, is alive.
As it has been reported yesterday in the British press, the private donors who have been supporting the 'Find Madeleine' Fund are not satisfied with the results of the work of the Spanish agency. According to Sky News Online, the company presided by Francisco Marco is asking 70 mil euros (£50,000) per month to the McCanns. "The group has not yet produced any evidence to back their claims that they know who took the girl", is is reported in Sky News Online.
Sky News Online went to Barcelona, the city of Método 3 headquarters. The agency has moved to his new office located in a luxury building where there is also a gay sauna.
Again according to Sky News, the McCanns are aware that Método 3 has changed their office.
Meanwhile, the British press said yesterday that the Judicial Police is still performing a meticulous job in analyzing the seized records of thousands of phone calls that have been made in Praia da Luz in the night when the little Maddie vanished.
The Daily Mail said that more than a thousand of people, tourists and residents in Praia da Luz, are being interviewed by the detectives who are particularly interested in the period between 21:30 and 22:00 on May 3 when the toddler would have allegedly disappeared.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
Well I guess they've noticed that Metodo are now doing their reputation more harm than good.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
I think that they got M3 involved following criticism that they weren't actually doing anything to find Madeleine. This was on M Board, on here and websleuths etc. I don't remember anything specific in a newspaper. But questions were being asked about how much had been spent - 300k on various things including their mortgage, Justine McGuiness 80k and so on. They emphasised the involvement of the CRG (ex SAS blokes) but everyone saw through that so they really had no choice but to engage an agency to do some looking. Maybe they had trouble finding someone who would touch it and ended up with the 3Amigos or maybe they needed someone cynical enough to just do what they were told and not ask to many awkward questions. Now they have to distance themselves. Next we'll get ..oh poor old McCanns they are trying so hard and they've been let down by those Spanish donkeys .. what can they do sort of stuff.
Andrea
· 1 year ago
although I do not post often, I read everything you all write daily and like others , I want to continue until the case is solved (although my husband/daughte/dog signal me frequently that they worry about me, being so obsessed...)
John, I read a while ago that the McCanns didn t choose M3, it was one of their millionaires who knew the agency and wanted to promote them . I just can t remember where I found it.
A few days ago the newspapers in Germany published the results of a clinical study about the increased frequency of cancer of children growing up near atomic plants.
It seems so corrupt of Gerry McCann to be the medical advisor on a commitee which affirms exactly the opposite in order to allow some people to make even more money....
Gem
· 1 year ago
Andrea i gave you a point up because ditto for me regarding the husband/ daughter/ son / dog signals .(..aka ..there's no food.. and clean clothes. ..I admit to ferreting clothes out of the laundry basket and secreting them back into the wardrobe hoping no-one will notice ... John is that more Hail Marys and flagellation for me.....)... And the obsession...What is it that intrigues and bothers us so much with this confounded story??
John and Andrea, will M3 make a new announcement soon if Maddy is not returned in time for Christmas?
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Andrea - on recollection I think you are right about M3 because there was a lot of confusion about who was paying them and it turned out to be one of the millionaires. I think there will be a lot of scrutiny of the audited accounts which the fund will have to submit as a plc. It is possible that they are just the idea of somebody who didn't know any better rather than an element in a cynical campaign as I suggested.
Gem - no more flagellation for you as you appear to enjoying it too much.
Gem
· 1 year ago
Nup, the self flagellation and guilt is not getting me off this board... maybe the smell of burning in the kitchen and the sound of the dog hurling will.. for a short time...
What is M3's new news going to be do you think?
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
Me too. I dont think i've cleaned the kitchen floor for 3 months. My daughter is complaining that we only ever eat pasta. As to why we are so obsessed. Well there is perhaps an astrological explanation for me and maybe for you all as well. One astrologer who has written about the case wrote to me saying: "M Mccann - the reason you are obsessed - and me too, more than most - is because her Pluto has tr to 23 Sag". I have venus conjunct jupiter at 23º sagittarius. (If that doesn't get Stanley out of the woodwork, I don't know what will). Pluto/scorpio is linked to taboos, detection, crime, the underworld... venus, ruler of libra is about justice and so is jupiter, ruler of sagittarius (the law). Our Steve is a triple scorpio hence this blog. Scorpios have no fear and are willing to confront the dark side, examine the underbelly and like to get to the root of the matter.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
And what exactly is the position of Uranus?
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
well judging by the points system, people agree with you john and not me. Maybe I wont bother posting anymore. I happen to believe in astrology. Would people take the piss out of someone's religion? No. Ciao.
Andrea
· 1 year ago
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Oops it was a joke. If you believe that strongly fair enough. Sorry!
Jose
· 1 year ago
In an article of Daniel Boffey published in the Daily Mail, November 5, it is reported that Método 3 "was hired by the couple's multi-millionaire-backer, Brian Kennedy, a double glazing tycoon". In other papers you read that Método 3 was hired by the McCanns, Kate and Gerry.
It's not clear if Método 3 has been hired by Brian Kennedy or the McCanns. What is sure is that the Find Madeleine Fund is giving £50,000 to pay Método 3 according to Clarence Mitchell.
The Bull pub in Hemel Hempstead, which raised more than £1,500 towards the fund for missing toddler Madeleine McCann, has now decided to donate the money to Iraq soldiers instead. Pub landlord Ricky Hampton made the decision after the parents of the four-year-old, who went missing in Portugal six months ago, became suspects in the police investigation.
The £1,570 total is now earmarked for Help For Heroes.
Mr Hampton explained: "We chose the charity because I served in Iraq during the war and I want to support my fellow soldiers because they don't get enough help from the Government.
"Once we find what's happening with the Madeleine McCann case we will be able to decide whether to make a donation."
Mr Hampton confirmed that a charity football match, again originally in support of the Find Madeleine Fund, will go ahead and the money raised will go to the pub's new chosen charity.
Mr Hampton is now busy trying to persuade celebrities to play against the pub team and if HeraldExpress readers would like to play, they can contact him on 01442 268912, or find out more about Help For Heroes at www.helpforheroes.org.uk
Since Madeleine's parents Kate and Gerry McCann were named official suspects, they have not used money from the Find Madeleine Fund, but the rate of donations to help find their daughter has slowed.
The current amount of £1,095,223.50, published on the Find Madeleine website, shows that less than £100,000 has been donated since July, when the amount stood at £1million.
Incidentally I've noticed that I don't appear to have the up and down arrows all the time. Why is that?
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
I think if you do a reply instead of an original post there are no points.
I'm not convinced this thing is working properly - I have to put my email in everytime and the button says anonymous - but my name comes up.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
I dont have to put in my email...it just says post as pinkdrummergirl
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Ah I've changed my browser to Safari and it works now.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
you can't give yourself points, i think thats why. I managed to give points by clicking on the up arrow.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
pdg Why don't you have the up and down arrows now? All the points figures are wring anyway - just add them up. Mine added up to 43 when added comment by comment at the sametime there were 16 on my profile page and 18 when you click on my photo!
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
hmm. not sure what to think. A disqus problem perhaps? I think the arrows disappear when its a reply .
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
A slipped disqus?
Dee
· 1 year ago
The point system is just too funny....in this sad saga, but sometimes you have to take a breather and laugh.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Damn I haven't find the correct thread! I will repost there what I put on haloscan.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Gazeta Digital:
Spanish hotline out of action
The Metodo 3 hotline, set up by the private detectives company hired by the McCann, to receive information from potential witnesses, has been out of service in the last days. Several attempts to dial the number had no result and Clarence Mitchell, contacted by phone, confirmed that the contract with Metodo 3 wasn't cancelled and admitted that the difficulties in getting somebody to answer the hotline could be due to the fact that Metodo 3 has changed his offices, recently. On the last message posted at the official site of Madeleine, Gerry appealed again to witnesses to contact the Spanish hotline: “We again appeal to anyone who may have any information that might be relevant to contact your local police or our private investigators on +34. 902. 300 213 if they have any information which might be relevant.”
Dee
· 1 year ago
Question about the new site, I think I have missed some posts. Is there a way to tell? For instance I have it set to the newest, but if someone replied to a post a few days ago (catching up) is there a way to tell with out scanning everything? I appreciate reading all the posts and as the Aerosmith song goes "I don't want to miss a thing". How can I be sure?
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
You can see all your own posts on the profile page (click on your picture - or below it) and you can follow someone else's posts if you want.
Dee
· 1 year ago
John, what I am wondering about is not my own posts, but say people who have been away (for some reason) say you. How can I tell you have posted something "new" say in response to Jose, who posted say 64 hours ago? I would still like to read your comment, even though it is not in response to me or new. But you don't want to have to scan pages on pages (as we know this case won't be solved soon unfortunately. Any ideas if there is a way to tag someone or something?
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Dee - If you go to the top and choose - Sort post by "oldest" and view post "flat" - then it turns into a straight date order thread - just like the old one - but it makes less sense cos you can't distinguish new subjects from replies. But at least you will be able to see anything new since you were last on - which is the problem right?
Dee
· 1 year ago
Yes, that is the problem, but I where do you find view (post "flat")? That's is probably the problem in this environment I am having?
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Top of the page on the right.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
hi dee. You click on the little plus sign above. You will see in writing above it go to diqus forum. There you can choose theaded or flat.
Dee
· 1 year ago
Finally got it...duh! Thanks for your help PDG & John. I love having choices and I think both are useful!
Dee
· 1 year ago
A Times Online storystyle article on the story, there are a few interesting points if you will to suffer through: http://tinyurl.com/2cdkux
- These days it was rare for Madeleine to wake up at all once she was in bed. If she did, she’d normally wander into her parents’ bed, whether they were there or not. At home in Rothley, sometime earlier, they had begun a star chart for Madeleine staying in her own bed. The chart, still on display in the kitchen, was full of stars.
- That night their group ordered six bottles in total and two were still untouched on the table at 10pm. No more than half a bottle of wine each. The Portuguese magazine Sol reported that the group had drunk 14 bottles. Another Portuguese journalist told me a local GNR (national republican guard) police officer had described one of the group as being so drunk later that evening, they could barely stand.
- Gerry paused over Madeleine, who – a typical doctor’s observation, this – was lying almost in “the recovery position” with Cuddle Cat,
- Her daughter fine, Jane returned to the table. At 9.30, Kate got up to make the next check on her children, but Matt Oldfield was checking too, as was Russell O’Brien, and Matt offered to do Kate’s check for her, which she accepted. Gerry teased that she would not be excused her turn at the next check.
- Russell O’Brien checked his own daughter at 9.30 and found she had been sick. Jane returned to the apartment to be with her daughter, and Russell went back to the table. Russell would later fall under suspicion too, because of those few minutes he spent away from the table.
- The twins slept on like logs, just as they always did at home, though even their parents were fleetingly worried – had they been sedated by an abductor? – that they should be quite so comatose.
- During Kate’s interviews with the PJ in September, just before she was declared an arguido, she was separated from her lawyer, and he was presented with a long list of factors pointing to her guilt, including entries from her entirely innocuous diary and a passage they believed she had marked in a Bible (which in fact had been given to her and marked by the original owner).
- The PJ also told the lawyer there was a 100% DNA match with Madeleine in the car and showed him a document that appeared to prove it. Possibly, this was the document showing Madeleine’s control sample of DNA. The McCanns feared even their own lawyer thought they were guilty. Kate was asked by the PJ to explain the dog alerts by her car. “You’re the police,” she said. “You tell me.” Kate asked the PJ: “Are you trying to destroy our family altogether?”
- Gerry was asked the same questions the next day but could not answer. (Sometime earlier a Leicestershire officer had said to him, just stick to what you know.) Why did the dogs only alert next to material belonging to the McCanns? The officer was brandishing the dog-handler’s report. And then: “Your daughter’s DNA, your daughter Madeleine McCann, how do you explain that?” “Show me that report,” Gerry asked. “No. This is the report that matters – with the dog.” Of course, they could not produce a DNA match because there wasn’t one.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Thanks for posting this Dee. I looked at the original but I prefer your extracts. It seems full of oddities to me. Apart from anything else why did a Leicester officer advise G on what to say when interviewed?
If indeed the PJ used interview techniques which involved bluffing that the evidence was stronger than it was ... well it seems unprofessional but on the other hand could be legitimate in the circumstances if the evidence is very strong and they want to find her body. Reading stuff like this depends so much on your basic position. If you are a McCann believer it reads as quiet disgraceful and that they have answers to all the little doubts. But if you are sceptical it doesn't take much to start to pull it to pieces. In the end it is almost because these kinds of articles are written that makes me doubt. Genuinely grieving parents would it seems to me not need or even be able to get this sort of thing written - but what do I know.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Also the same article says this:
"Kate was to go to the nearby town of Portimao the next day, Thursday, September 6, to be questioned by detectives from the Policia Judiciaria (PJ). It would be Gerry’s turn the day after. For the media this would be a shocking new twist to the story – but not for the McCanns: the PJ had told them four weeks earlier they were going to be subjected to formal interviews and the McCanns had stayed on, instead of going home at the end of August as originally planned, waiting for the interviews to take place. Waiting. Waiting."
So now the interviews were not a shock and far from vowing to stay in Portugal till Madeleine was found they were planning to go home at the end of August. i.e. they did not run away when made arguidos but just went on with their original plans. This is a new slant to me.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
I loathed this article. It struck me as incredibly biased towards the Mccanns, not at all what you expect to see from a journalist who specialises in crime. He just glosses over some of the more questionable aspects of the timeline and story. I'd also like to say I really like this new format. Obviously it will take some time to get used to it for some... I noticed on the meredith kerchner thread which I dip into from time to time if I can bothered to wade through a certain posters' posts, that many of the commentators have negative points!
Andrea
· 1 year ago
pinkdrummergirl, sorry to ask such naive questions - what is a follower? For example, you have two followers.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
They are people who worship my every utterance. Actually I think it's me following 2 other people. I'll follow you too if you like...
Jose
· 1 year ago
I disliked too this article. The author of this article pretends that he is not from a side or another: pro-McCann or antiMcCann. Reporting as true, facts that are just the mere speculations of the author, yes indeed it's not a pro-McCann or anti-McCann attitude, it's the attitude of an irresponsible journalist who is just milking the story.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
What is a star chart?
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
Its like a rewards chart in which you put for instance, gold stars to reward someone for doing something. It really works actually. People are insanely desirous of positive feedback. I met a guy in florida this summer who started up a book of stars for people jogging next to the beach. He showed me a book with 250 people names, dates and whether they jogged that day or not. He did it voluntarily, not as part of an organisation. People would ask for stars to be counted if they jogged on a day that he wasn't there, but he would refuse, saying if I didn't see it, it's not going in the book. They'd get quite upset. And these were adults. http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee154/astrom... http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee154/astrom... Having said all that I'm insanely pleased at all my points!
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Thank you pdg I now feel that I should give you a point.
Dee
· 1 year ago
John, I have been mulling over that...I hope it is only because this Leicester officer is a personal friend and but it was good advice. Just can't understand why that would be in the article/STORY as well as some of the other points like the star chart...it doesn't seem to help "their" case.
Dee
· 1 year ago
I think they are desperate to solidify their time-lines etc. What I think was most shocking was the "star chart" Madeline had a home, proving she had problems staying in bed at night. Also they parents had fleeting thoughts whether the twins had been sedated but early newspapers reports said the parents refused to have the twins urine tested.
AndyT
· 1 year ago
Thought I'd just say hello...
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Hi AndyT
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
Uber spin going on now...in tonights LondonLite, "Gerry 's fury at 'bungling' dog handler"s... A source close to the McCanns said: "Gerry saw it on the tape. Vehicles were lined up in an underground car park. Gerry says the dog went up to the Scenic, sniffed around it and went to head off. But he says he watched the dog brought back to the vehicle and finally it reacts around the boot area.Gerry was open-mouthed when he saw it. He feels the dog was manoeuvred into a position where it could react. To Gerry it looked like the dog was being encouraged to react in certain places of relevance." But this was British police wasn't it?
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
It was the world renown cadaver dogs called something like Keila and Eddie. They have helped solve crimes in UK and USA. Mr. McCann is talking through his backside. And they are British - in fact it was the input of the British police team which turned the case round to focus on the McCanns - those who go on about PJ bungling tend to forget this.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Its Keela not Keila sorry ... and here is her blog to prove it:
Yes I confirm there is no bungling dogs handlers in Portugal, only bungling cops according to the British press. The dogs are Keila and Eddie, top British dogs handled by the British Police in the Portuguese soil.
This article in the Daily Mail is just recycling old info. The weird think is that they report an hypothetical reaction of Gerry McCann according to an unnamed source closed to the McCanns.
The article doesn't say when and where Gerrry has seen the video. Everybody has seen documentaries showing this dogs in action in a Renault Scénic. It's not a secret for the inquiry since these images are public.
Nevertheless, Gerry McCann does not show the same prudence as his lawyer , Rogério Alves who respects in the letter the secret of justice.
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Jose & John I think Gerry is just looking for something to be 'furious' about. This has been out in the public domain for so long I'm surprised he hasn't picked up on it before but perhaps like those commenting he finds himself in hiatus and wants to keep the kettle boiling?
Liz
Dee
· 1 year ago
Jose, no one has seen the police video it was a re-enactment, but your right came from an unnamed source. I wish we had the old PJ unnamed sources still around. Fair is fair.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
Also, I thought he wasn't allowed to talk about the investigation?
Dee
· 1 year ago
That's right, he was directly talking about the investigation and evidence.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
hi lizbee... I always thought it was strange that Jane Tanner didn't mention bundleman immediately to the Mccanns. In that piece it says "but there was so little time to talk in the first few days that it was not until Jane saw the description of Madeleine’s pyjamas in the media, around Monday or Tuesday of the following week, that she told them the little girl she had seen was wearing the same design: pink top and white bottoms with a floral design." And only then did she properly associate bundleman carrying a child with pink pyjamas with Maddie. I find that odd too. Surely one of your first questions would be "What was she wearing?" when you did the initial search. Surely pink and white pyjamas would have been what everybody was looking out for? Easier to see in the dark, from a distance etc...
lizbee
· 1 year ago
pdg, Way back when - this point about JT not mentioning Egg/Bundle/Child carrying man - was my biggest bug bear about JT. Reports about when she first mentioned him have been blurred IMO over the last couple of months as the story re: Panorama unfolded. But I'm as sure as you are that this was reported very differently early on with statements supposedly from JT saying 'I thought nothing of it at the time' which I found completely unbelievable, then later the added detail about the pinky aspect & lacy trim of the pjs?? And as you say - all in the poor light too, all we need now is to find out that JT wears glasses!
lizbee
· 1 year ago
I posted the belated ironic query re: JT & glasses on the forum, beachy replied immediately with 'No'. Although it was a half-jokey enquiry - I didn't truly know the answer... and now I do.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
'easier to see in the dark', i meant, when people were searching for Madeleine. Its the first thing people ask you when someone is lost " What were they wearing?". I also find it strange, I know this has been mentioned before, that Kate didn't immediately go to Jane Tanners apt next door when she saw the Madeleine was missing, and why Jane Tanner didn't hear her screaming from the balcony, after all everybody else did. From what I can gather, Jane Tanner is Kate's best friend. To the point that she attended Madeleine's birth. She, after Gerry, would be the first to be told no? Her casual attitude about this in her Panorama interview is what made me disbelieve her testimony. I think what you'd do in this situation is put all the kids together in one apartment with one adult and all go searching for Madeleine as obviously this group of adults would know her best visually. I suppose Kate Mccann would say, well I knew immediately that Madeleine was abducted due to the state of the apt. However we have received differing reports about this: Mark Warners' PR suggests that their initial thoughts were that Madeleine wandered off, some reports say that the apt was a mess, turned upside down in the search for Madeleine, the recent book suggests that it was immaculate and didn't look as if children were staying there. Now according to this latest report, Gerry wasn't playing a third game of tennis that day...
lizbee
· 1 year ago
pdg I see what you mean re: clothing & recognition - and I agree if she truly saw those pjs why in god's name didn't she say so at the time??
Re: When Kate called out... the whole JT statement has me baffled on this point as well, in the latest broadsheet news stories JT is supposed to have returned to the Tapas Bar after the sighting of bundleman and after sorting out the problem at her and O'Bs appt. with their daughter and then returned to the appt. by 'tennish' when she was called upon, so she was at the tapas for 15 mins tops then? By her own statements this is improbable if you take the walking to and fro into account.
Re: the appt. it could not have been immaculate when the PJ arrived and allowed K & G to pick up what they needed immediatley - I can't believe the twins were still there when PJ arrived, but if they were - place them elsewhere etc. it would have been 'a mess of DNA & evidence' for any police force to encounter, but I believe the PJ then sealed the appt. Later K & G must have been allowed to collect the rest of their belongings and did what most of us would do i.e. leave the place as you found it. That would allow for the difference in statements re: the appt. but I do also believe that the McC's don't allow for 'mess' generally and Kate has always struck me as a 'cushion alligner' (nothing wrong there ordinarily but odd in circs. and more especially on holiday with toddlers).
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
cushion alligner lol! Control freakery! I've been known to do a bit of plumping meself...
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Me too! but it only stays that way whilst I'm on my own to view it... then the teenager spreads herself and homework across my lovely new rug and the twins bounce along the sofa throwing the 'throw' and the previously well positioned cushions... but we don't run a show house, ours is home :)
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Just in case anyone hasn't seen it there's something to click on at the beginning of the thread to the right that says 'flat' then go to the end of the thread and view it in the old format with new posts coming down.
Dee
· 1 year ago
Re: the apt. I believe the PJ said the place was trashed and I took that to mean a mess, but after the new book, I took that to mean compromised forensic wise, with so many people going in and out. Really they should have and perhaps did, know better. I would know better with an accounting background...geez.
Dee
· 1 year ago
I totally agree with both of you.
Andrea Lossau
· 1 year ago
Steve has anounced yesterday that he will return the haloscan system again. But it is still possible to leave comments here.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
aww. I like this format! Steve, it's only been 4 days! Don't let the fuddy-duddy's put you off! (beginning to wonder if you are the net equivalent of a 'cushion alligner'; always tidying up/changing the furniture around!)
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
i notice lynn and metalguru are on the haloscan thread. What shall we do? Now the absence of certain commentators such as Stanley, A reasonable man,Billie, and the pro's, DC, Karina, Nancydisgrace, Blimeyhecks, Martina (actually she was the one I thought that was German not Karina and she buggered off a few weeks ago) well that could all be due to them having a busy christmas and not the disqus format...
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
I ma very sad that we have lost so many people (well maybe not Nancy and BH) ... but this happened before when there was a lull in real news. Before the McCanns becoming arguidos thing really started. As soon as things started happening then everyone came flooding back - with the exception of pooh and liz who had trouble with the way the thing was going.
I'm really grateful to Jose particularly who is keeping this thing on its feet. But, and I'm not really sure why, I'm here till the bitter end (God willing) mainly because I want to know what happened and I would like to see justice for Madeleine.
I also think we should stay here because otherwise we will get totally confused. I'm not sure why Steve opened two threads.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
i agree. This loads faster and i like seeing peoples pictures and getting points. Lets face it not much is going to happen over the christmas period unless, if the Mccanns are guilty, they have a total crisis of conscience over the christmas holidays and confess all.
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
That would be something to witness - Clarence Mitchell emerging from their house to say "Er... they've just remembered ... "
Jose
· 1 year ago
We should follow our conversation there. There is a link to this forum in the haloscan thread. Lynn and Metal Guru have joined this thread.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
hi gem, i was just about to say that. Don't let it put you off though.
Gem
· 1 year ago
i should be deducted 3 points for that blunder...
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Hail Marys and ritual scourging should suffice I would have thought.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
tee hee have just gone through entire list and given everyone a point. quite time consuming. Was it Nancy?
lizbee
· 1 year ago
pdg how did you do that?
meman
· 1 year ago
I think John may be on the wrong page
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
That's the page I'm ok meman.
Dee
· 1 year ago
I just watched twice, once totally watching Kate and once Gerry. I thought this was the most believable footage yet, which I am not saying much here. If you watch Gerry while Kate is talking he seems to be reading something (cue cards maybe). It sure appeared scripted, but Kate seemed to really know her lines down packed, but Gerry seemed to want to be sure. The biggest thing that struck me was when she was talking to Madeleine...why on earth would you say "Madeleine, it's mummy and daddy here. Just know how much we love you. We all miss you so much." WEIRD!
lizbee
· 1 year ago
Yes Dee, my final verdict too! Wierd.
But I think if you hadn't followed the case through all it's meanderings you would be very moved by it. Or not?
What do others think?
Andrea
· 1 year ago
To me it seems totally crazy. Their appeal to the abductor - even that they tell him/her they understand if he doesn t want to come forward - maybe out of loyalty - sounds like they understand themselves!
the whole thing is so unreal - it must be Clarence s spin! Even people who have not followed the case during the last months must think - why do still they act as if Madeleine was alive after 8 months being in the hands of...?
From time to time the hoax theory, an abduction planned by them and their friends, seems right. But I don t think she is still alive, maybe planned abduction and then something went wrong, so her death changed the whole thought-out scenario. Of course this is speculation without any evidence and does not really belong here.
pinkdrummergirl
· 1 year ago
I think their advisors have been reading the forums and noted the complaint that they never spoke directly to madeleine in their previous appeals...
Andrea
· 1 year ago
Hey pdg, please post more! Remember, I am your follower. Talking about those points:
The reduction of your points must be due to something not working correctly! I noticed at one time all your comments received 0 points. But they were totally objective , with no reason for anyone to not accept your statements. It is the system ,not you!
By the way, I was downgraded immedeately after my emotional statement that I wanted the haloscan back . I felt censored at that time...
KATE and Gerry McCann may have to apply to the European Court of Human Rights to clear their names, legal sources said last night.
The couple believe they are likely to remain official suspects for many years, making it difficult for them to begin rebuilding their lives.
Despite a lack of progress in the police investigation and little solid evidence, it is believed that the Portuguese authorities will not lift the McCanns’ “arguido” status in the coming months.
It raises the prospect of a protracted legal battle through the Portuguese courts, which could eventually end in the human rights court.
Lawyers representing Kate and Gerry, who were declared suspects in September – four months after Madeleine disappeared – will attempt to clear their names officially in the New Year. But should that fail, they are prepared for a lengthy and bitter legal battle.
The parents of Madeleine McCann may ask the media to pay for interviews and unreleased footage of their daughter. Nearly half the £1.2m given to Madeleine’s Fund has gone on advertising and to pay £50,000 a month to the detective agency leading the search. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can't wait for John' response on this one...shit....I wish for Stanley's & Reasonable Man's, Chanel, Billie, etc..... Maggie comeback for this one. What does everyone think...?
And ever since Madeleine disappeared on May 3, police have been looking for a blue tennis bag that went missing around that time. The bag - big enough to carry a small child - belonged to her father Gerry McCann, who had been playing tennis at the complex that afternoon.
The Madeleine McCann Mystery is being shown on Christmas Eve at 7.30pm on Sky Digital Channel 501 and Freeview Channel 82.
Jose
· 1 year ago
In the daily Mirror it is suggested that it could be a bag like the one used by them when Gerry returned to Portugal, May 22, where he appears in the company of Clarence Mitchell.
Dee
· 1 year ago
http://tinyurl.com/yp6b2g Police want to trace a blue tennis bag allegedly taken from Kate and Gerry McCann's apartment on the night Madeleine went missing.
Detectives think the hold-all could have been used to carry Madeleine as she was taken away, or even to transport the three-year-old's body.
It belonged to the girl's father but has not been seen since the night of May 3, according to a Sky News documentary due to be broadcast on Cristmas Eve.
Expert Tony Rogers, who reviews unsolved cases for British police and worked on the Soham investigation, said: "If it's a bag of a size that could be used to take a child away from the flat, that would be of great interest to the investigating officer."
But McCann family spokesman Clarence Mitchell flatly denied that Mr McCann had lost a bag during the family's holiday.
He said: "As far as Kate and Gerry are concerned, there is no missing tennis bag. They came back from holiday with everything except of course, tragically, Madeleine."
Mr McCann told friends yesterday that he did not take any tennis equipment to Praia da Luz, and did not own a blue tennis bag.
But Sky News stood by its story, which it said came from sources who had travelled to the resort after Madeleine's disappearance.
Andrea
· 1 year ago
Dee, I notice something that has happened to pdg before: someone seems to not like your comments and sets your points to zero quite often - -
As I always said, I liked haloscan because it didn t allow such games.
Dee
· 1 year ago
Hi Andrea, thanks and yeah I noticed. I am not very popular, sucks to be me. I don't like the point system either, but I can understand it probably helps Steve in monitoring. I also understand, everyone is not going to agree with everything I have to say and I wouldn't want that, but...0 for posting a news clip without my even commenting?
In my opinion (yeah here we go) this is the biggest clue (if true) we have been given in a long time. If it is not true is it to rattle the other Tapas, making them wonder if it is true before questioning and would/could they become accomplices? Will JT change her story...again? To me this is huge, I wish I could see the Sky report...but I trust they will have it on-line.
Dee
· 1 year ago
Jose or Marilla can you confirm this? It is taken from Baileyboy on the forum:
from todays diaria de noticas
The Judicial Police (PJ) is searching for months for a blue tennis bag with sufficient size to carry a small child, which belonged to the father of Madeleine McCann. The news was advanced yesterday by the British television channel Sky News, which adds that Gerry McCann assured at the time to the investigators that the bag was "stolen".
Jose
· 1 year ago
It seems to me that Sky News, which has nothing to say about the McCann case, is just recycling old news. Then this information is also reported in the Portuguese press as new because they have nothing interesting to say.
Andrea
· 1 year ago
I agree. But still interesting - as it can be read in the m forum - that there is such a heavy attack of Sky news at Christmas!
Jose
· 1 year ago
I think the attacks of Sky News begin in the blog of Martin Brunt the Life of Crime where he criticized the Spanish detectives.
And the article about the bag is also a paper of Martin Brunt! Martin Brunt has been a true supporter of the McCanns.
Sky News will diffuse a special program today about the McCann case. That story of the blue bag and the pedophile is probably an advertising promotion story to call the attention of the viewers.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Correio da Manhã:
Defamation: Christian Ridout can sue them Metodo 3 is pursuing a false suspect
Although they failed all their promises to the McCanns, the Spanish detectives of the private eye agency, Método 3, are now pursuing the former DJ of a pub in Praia da Luz, Christian Ridout that has not been seen in the Algarve for two years and who "has nothing to do" with the disappearance of Madeleine, ensures a source closed to the Inquiry. "The experts are risking a trial for defamation and malicious falsehood".
The persecution of the detectives according to the Daily Mai is confirmed by the spokesman of the McCanns, Clarence Mitchell. The picture of the suspect "circulates throughout the international press" add our sources and the impact "in terms of image is very bad for someone already discarded" by the legitimate detectives of the case.
The Briton, 30 years old, worked in the pub Plough and Harrow but in 2005 he went by car to Spain - the Daily Mail reports that his VW Golf was given up at the Seville airport and Christian returned to England. But the suspicions of the detectives are justified by alleged messages "with obscene language" that the Briton should had sent for months to a 12 years old girl.
"He was suggesting he should pick her up from school", recalls the mother to the newspaper and he was also "suggesting the most disgusting sex acts". The woman, 42 years old, says that she had only discovered what was happening only after two months and she threatened him and then he fled. He has never been seen again in the Algarve but his family is still at Praia da Luz.
The day after the disappearance of Maddie, May 3, a man should have ask for Christian at the pub - two years later, "he could have been back" it has been reported in the Daily Mail yesterday. The CM knows that "this theory has been considered among others but it has been immediately rejected".
Interviews
The McCanns and their friends should be interviewed between January and February with their respective Letters Rogatory that would be sent by the Attorney General’s Office (PGR) to the British authorities at beginning of the new year.
He may have harassed a child in 2005
Christian Ridout, 30 years, may have sent obscene messages to a girl of 12 years in 2005. He left Praia da Luz two years ago but the detectives of the McCanns are pursuing him.
Jose
· 1 year ago
According to SoS Madeleine website, the Leceistershire Police said that they know the new witnesses Jayne Jensen and Annie Wiltshire and they add that "their credibility as witnesses is equivalent to the credibility that the revelations of Metodo 3 deserve"
Dee
· 1 year ago
Even when I have backed off on this case to re-adjust this case in my own mind and regroup. I am "almost" convinced the parents have something to do with this...I feel confidence in "spouting this"...outside of waiting for "all or 100 per cent" of the evidence & a trial, but based on their own words and actions; forget anything else in the papers, DNA, dogs, etc. In the media I heard the video/audio (BBC)...Kate has now announced, she (anyway) admitted she didn't search) for Madeleine. Does that no raise a "hello"? There it is now on video in her own words and although ...does that make anyone feel better on this site, except sad, I am sure. But...it makes me feel totally angry about "3" and they continue to let this happen, dragging people though the mud, and who is responsible for letting this happen?. It also seems there is a tradition/damning that there is always seems to be a new siting or siting, when negative news hits the Mcs as my interpetation. Although if there was some kind of accident as I see as as very possibile, I have lost even more respect if people are perhaps willing to sit back for someone...anyone to take the rap? If this is the case...I have to think/say (unfortunately) "throw the book at that them". I feel so bad at thinking/saying that, but then I think of the all those ruined lives, fund that innocent people donated to in good faith etc.; blame should go, where blame lies ...(shit,... but they are digging the hole, for themselves it seems). But certainly there is a bigger injustice, here? Thankfully (regardless of religion) people care about this case from all over the world it appears; and are calling for justice for this little girl. This little girl's legacy will not just have an impact on the press but on law in both countries possibly, either on each own or together, as well as DNA policies. Hopefully these two country's respect will still be there or intact, as I truly trust they will be.
Jose
· 1 year ago
Correio da Manhã
Kate and Gerry will remain suspects for six months McCanns fear long judicial battle
According to the online edition of the British newspaper Leicester Mercury, the McCanns should continue with their suspect status for further six months if the judge grant to the Public Prosecution to extend the secrecy of justice that should end on January 3.
Kate and Gerry are fearing to face a protracted battle until June and they are already considering to take the case to the European Court of Human Rights.
According to the British press, the McCanns are still ignoring the reasons why they were made suspects and they are not allowed to make any comment on the case.
After postponing the secrecy of justice, the Judicial Police will thus have more time to re-interview the McCanns and their seven friends, who dinned together the day when Madeleine vanished, and also to continue the investigation.
The Lawyers of the British couple will not have access to the evidence existing against them and suggesting that Kate and Gerry are suspect of having transported and disposed of the cadaver of the little Madeleine McCann.
Jose
· 1 year ago
I am still pleased to read the statements of Clarence Mitchell concerning the Madeleine McCann case.
In the Daily Star, he said "although a lot of what has been written and said about them in Portugal has been rubbish, it is important the case is still news. Kate and Gerry’s view is that they can’t allow people to forget about Madeleine".
Concerning the suspects status of the McCanns, he said “Kate and Gerry’s lawyers are working very hard on that and will continue to do so".
In fact, their Portuguese lawyers are not at all working to lift their suspects status. They perfectly know that they will remain suspect until the end of the inquiry as Rogério Alves has already reported to the press. So it's just another lie.
He explained that the McCanns don't want to return to Portugal because they want to avoid "another media frenzy".
That's strange statements because during the last days all the rubbish frenzy that has been reported by the press was coming from the McCann team and their Spanish private eyes detectives, Método 3 and they have done nothing to avoid it.
I thought that the purpose of the rubbish reported by Método 3 in UK was to provide news because the McCanns don't want that people forget their daughter. So is it just another lie?
John_Uk
· 1 year ago
Jose - people like CM who try to 'spin' all the time inevitably end up tripping themselves up with their untruth. They want publicity but they don't want publicity .. and so on...
All Comments
Go t top and choose "Oldest" and then "Threaded" and then it all makes sense. You can reply to individual posts - in which case your reply is indented, or you can post a new topic (at the top) in which it is not indented.
Jose: 'Private' detective's indeed!
So the McCann's did indeed leave the children alone on more than one occasion as was witnessed by Bridget O'Donnell. There are many good points in this article, as long as the reader ignores the obvious bias.
http://tinyurl.com/22633t
all I can say is they have it in for Murat:
"He "had a squint and sweated slightly," said Ms O'Donnell. "He was breathless, perhaps a little excited... He reminded me of a boy in my class who was bullied."
As I said on the other thread I find this kind of thing quite yuk!
I see I have 2 points!
The next comment, if it is meant for all readers, should not be placed here by clicking "reply" to another commentator, rather it should be entered in the comment box at the bottom of the blog entry.
"I have not been following the Omagh trial on a daily basis (10 months!!!???) and therefore cannot speak to every issue that was addressed there. However, there are some things that were said by the judge and printed by the press today that must be addressed. A few comments on what I have read and heard in the media:
(1) The judge said: "The absence of an agreed protocol for the validation of scientific techniques prior to their being admitted in court is entirely unsatisfactory. Judges are not well placed to determine scientific validity without input from scientists. We recommend that one of the first tasks of the Forensic Science Advisory Council be to develop a “gate-keeping” test for expert evidence. This should be done in partnership with judges, scientists and other key players in the criminal justice system, and should build on the US Daubert test."
What he is talking about is a U.S. Supreme Court case, Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals, in which the U.S. Supreme Court established a more stringent test for admissibility of expert testimony than had previously been used in U.S. federal (as opposed to state) courts. What he seems to have overlooked or misunderstood includes the following:
(a) The Daubert ruling was issued in a case involving a civil lawsuit over damages from a drug, Bendectin, that had supposedly caused harm to the unborn babies of pregnant women who took it. IT DID NOT INVOLVE A CRIMINAL CASE. The case revolved around the role of judges in the U.S. federal courts acting as "gatekeepers" in deciding whether to admit and how much weight to give to the testimony of expert witnesses; one of the main purposes was to give judges guidance because civil cases in U.S. courts had degenerated into a battle of expert witnesses that judges were sometimes ill-qualified to evaluate.
Lots of luck to the Forensic Science Advisory Council in developing a "gate keeping" test for expert testimony; 14 years after the initial Daubert ruling, courts in the U.S. are still struggling as to how to incorporate Daubert into criminal practice, as long-accepted sources of evidence such as ballistics tests on weapons and even EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY do not meet the Daubert test. (Think about it: How can eyewitness testimony be scientifically verified? And yet, how could the courts of any country function without it?) The judge can try to inflict the Daubert standard on the UK in criminal cases if he wishes, and perhaps the police and prosecutorial agencies will buy into that, but AT PRESENT COURTS IN ONLY 11 OF THE 50 STATES IN THE UNITED STATES REQUIRE THAT THE DAUBERT TEST BE USED IN CRIMINAL CASES. (The others use some version of a less stringent standard based on relevancy.)
(b) The Daubert ruling occurred in 1993. It has since been modified by other Supreme Court cases, including one known as "Daubert II" in which the most persuasive factor in evaluating expert testimony is supposed to be WHETHER THE EXPERT HAD CONDUCTED RESEARCH INDEPENDENT OF THE LITIGATION OR WHETHER THE EXPERT'S OPINIONS WERE DEVELOPED EXPRESSLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF TESTIFYING. In other words, is what we have on our hands here a real expert who has done considerable scientific research on this subject, or just a hired gun who, for a price, is willing to get up on the stand and give us his opinion?
I do not think there is any question whatsoever that the testimony of Dr. Peter Gill of FSS would meet the test of Daubert II. He is the person who first figured out how to do low copy number DNA analysis and has published peer-reviewed scientific papers on it. Based on what I have read, in my opinion, the PROSECUTION witnesses in the Omagh trial came much closer to meeting the Daubert II test than the defence witnesses.
(2) I was always concerned about one aspect of the DNA evidence used in the Omagh case: The low copy number analysis was run only twice, which was probably thought at the time to be all that was necessary, but subsequent research has shown that running the test three times is optimal. It is my understanding that LCN/DNA tests are now routinely run three times, and I expect that this has already been done in the Madeleine McCann case.
(3) The judge said that that LCN has only been adopted for evidential purposes in two other countries in the world, the Netherlands and New Zealand. I don't know what he means by "adopted for evidential purposes." It is a FACT (as Lucian might say, LOL) that LCN DNA analysis has been successfully used in the courts of New Zealand, the Netherlands, the United States, the UK, Australia, and Sweden. I do not know how he can have omitted Sweden, as some of the most high-profile cases that used LCN/DNA analysis have occurred there. One involved the conviction of the man who knifed Swedish Foreign Minister Anna Lindh in 2003. Another case involved the 2005 successful prosecution of a man who had raped and murdered two children in the 1980s. In Australia, LCN/DNA analysis was crucial in obtaining a conviction in the Peter Falconio murder case. In all these cases, verdicts have stood up on appeal.
Whilst it is true that to date only one person has been convicted in the U.S. in a case in which LCN/DNA analysis was the primary source of evidence (Jauquin Byrd, convicted of murder in Pennsylvania in 2007), his case has stood up on appeal, and there are many others "in the pipeline." In fact, one state in the U.S. has passed a law requiring that LCN/DNA analysis be performed on all weapons recovered in connection with serious felonies (murder, rape), and several other states are considering such legislation.
(4) I was under the impression throughout the Omagh case that a huge negative for the prosecution was that two witnesses from the police seem to have lied about how the evidence was collected. That alone could be sufficient reason for a not-guilty verdict, but it says nothing whatsoever about the validity of LCN/DNA.
This is my opinion: All the brouhaha surrounding the subject today to the contrary, I should not expect that LCN/DNA analysis will be outlawed or declared inadmissible in the courts of the UK. As the process becomes more widely available, I should expect that it will also come to be used in more countries. Any time science advances, there are always sceptics. One should not allow scepticism to impede scientific progress, but neither should an exciting new scientific discovery be allowed to proceed pell-mell without proper safeguards. I should not be surprised if what comes out of the ACPO review and other oversight activities is a set of guidelines requiring that before LCN/DNA analysis is admitted in court, the samples should be run three times, as well as a specific set of guidelines for gathering such evidence, and that is all to the good.
There is no reason that the decision in Omagh should preclude the use of LCN/DNA evidence in the Madeleine McCann case."
Hope she is right!
With regard to DNA evidence and low copy number analysis, the most important factor (for me) is validation. In order to establish that a result is a true result, a validation study is first carried out to document how the study proceeds, how the study is interpreted and to ensure that the result of such study are reproducible, reliable and correctly interpreted. I therefore see no reason why this technique should be excluded from future cases?
thanks for the link to beachy. Very interesting stuff.
But remember, whatever about the analysis of the DNA LCN etc in the Omagh case, there is some problem with the gathering of evidence by the PSNI in the first place. I wish I had the link, but there was a major spat between Nuala O'Loan (Police Ombudsman for NI) and Ronnie Flanagan (Chief of PSNI at the time) not long after the atrocity.
Furthermore in my opinion, the case was decided by ONE judge and NO jury. This to me seems odd. The judge is left with the sole decision, and I would not like to be him!
Anyway, onwards and upwards as they say,
Keep the faith!
MG
Dee, I think it means that it gets bumped up the list so it appears first, that's what I worked out anyhoo!
John, Didn't see the vid (on long call!), not sure if I fancied watching it anyway, was it really bad?
Metal Guru, It looks like the DNA evidence will still be used as investigation is Ptgse and IMO there will be more to come about such evidence as you say one Judge can't decide!
http://tinyurl.com/2yxu5n
halfway down the page if you want to see it. It wasn't as upsetting as I thought it might be. Just another weird thing - if you believe then then it would be moving - if you don't then it sets alarm bells ringing.
Alves came to Spain to collect an award of the council of the Spanish Bar where he has given an interview to ABC, yesterday.
- This Morning the Spanish private eye agency, hired by the McCanns, said that they know where the kidnappers of Madeleine are and they will give news of Madeleine before Christmas.
- I am not aware of this statements except for what you are saying. You should ask to the Spanish agency.
- If a Portuguese child had disappeared in England, would we a similar case like the one of Madeleine? Don't you think that it wasn't the British press which has made it to become something special giving to it a nationalistic tinge?
- There is no criticism to the Portuguese authorities. The disappearance of a child is something difficult to investigate, in Portugal, in England, in Spain, in any part of the world. What has happened is that through the disappearance there was the help given to the McCanns to try to find their daughter with economics means and so on. When other children disappear, there is no such possibilities. However, as a lawyer of this case, these circumstances are beyond my control.
- What do you think that the McCanns hired a private eye agency from Barcelona?
- Anything that is legal and that the parents think that could help to find their daughter, is acceptable for me.
- Could you tell me what is the character of the parents of Madeleine, Kate and Gerry? Are they cold? They don't want to show their feelings?
- I don't speak about my clients. However by the law I have to contest that it tarnishes their honor.
- This is precisely why I ask it. Why do they have this image of coldness?
- Yes. I understand the question, but understand me if I don't tell you more. For me, they are two persons that I knew and they are two human beings like any others.
- What do you think that the Justice of Portugal has been formally treated as suspicious?
- If the Police has seen that there is a clue that could incriminate, they had to proceed in this form. But let me clarify. A suspect in any process is not an a accused. We hope that the suspicions are not going to be confirmed. They are still claiming that they have nothing to do with the disappearance of their daughter.
- Was it the blood of Madeleine in the car of the McCanns?
- The inquiry is secret. The only thing that it could be said is that the parents continue to deny to be involved. They continue to maintain that it has been an abduction.
http://tinyurl.com/29tlnp
and the other part about the barn could be connected to the phone call between gerry and o' brien, the towel, the renault .... Two completely different directions - or not?
Second part is much more interesting and why haven't other papers picked-up on this?
The Pj has re-requestioned an employee of the Ocean Club
The employee has been the first to see Kate after Maddie vanished.
The PJ has returned to hear for the third time, since the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Praia da Luz, the first employee of the Ocean Club that arrived when the Mother of the toddler was screaming from the veranda of the apartment: "They have taken her!". This waiter is considered as a crucial witness for the investigation, reports the DN.
The employee has been questioned two times, three weeks ago, in the PJ of Portimão. The Police has informed him that they will eventually return to the charge to ask more clarification. But, according to what is known, this person had nothing more to add, he had merely repeated what he had already said. The detectives insist on the happenings of the dinner, especially in the conversations and postures of the McCanns, in addition to the alleged displacements of the same in the apartment where Maddie and her twin siblings were sleeping.
The employee continues to ensure to be false that the parents of the toddler had gone to check their children each half hour as it has been reported initially to the PJ. Kate stood up from the table around 22h00 and she went to the apartment and it was at this moment that she raised the alarm from the veranda. The testimony of the employee will be one of the trumps of the PJ to clarify the contradictions of the McCanns and their friends, who were spending their holidays together, in the future interviews, in England, as a consequence of the Letters Rogatory that are being translated.
Yesterday the McCanns' spokesman Clarence Mitchell furious denied the claims. He said: "This is all lies. Kate has consistently and categorically absolutely denied that she said that on the veranda.
"But in the evening she may have said it at some stage as a general remark, but she did not run out with this phrase.
"Whoever this guy is and if he is saying this, he is either making it up or he is mistaken.
"Kate, Gerry and their friends told the truth. They will continue to maintain their stories, because it is the truth. Whatever this guy is saying, we reject it, it is not true."
Sorry about that I was having trouble with the link it worked perfectly before I posted it but then collapsed once posted? but this one should work :)
She says: "I have answered everything the police asked me. They know everything so what right do these 'detectives' have to do this to me?
"They used us. They had to find something, someone, and that someone was me."
Michaela recalls: "On May 5 [when she was allegedly 'spotted' with a child in a blanket] I spent the morning cleaning my house, then I went to the hairdressers and in the evening I had a meal with two friends and Rob [Murat].
"On June 15, when I was supposed to be in Morocco, I went to see my lawyer and then had lunch with Rob and his lawyer. After that I went to the bank."
It has also been insinuated that Michaela lied about her whereabouts on the night Maddie disappeared.
She told police she had been at a meeting at her church in Lagos but a congregation member said Michaela had been cast out of the church last year.
At the time, Michaela was living with her husband, although they were separated, and was also friends with Robert, breaking church rules.
Michaela says: "I was set aside from the main congregation last year but I was brought back in March and was at a meeting that night with my daughter. There can be about 100 people there at any one time.
"It's entirely possible that someone didn't see me there but at the same time there are also many people that did.
"The worst part is people putting me in this, knowing I have nothing to do with it. They have no feelings, no heart. They are completely empty.
"I don't know if it is the McCanns or Metodo 3, I don't know who it is, but one way or another they are trying to put me in there.
"It makes me sad and it makes me angry. I have nothing but I am still a better person with a higher standard than all that bunch of people. I will not be used and abused.
"I've had enough of this vile game that others are playing. Others that are free to earn money, to walk around, to have a life. What about my life?"
She adds: "It's just like a film. You have the goodies and the baddies. It's as though one side is being supported and the other is not. These people I've never met accuse me of being in places I've never been, doing things I've never done.
"I didn't spend my whole life trying to be a good and happy person for people to come like rats from a hole accusing me of things I've never done."
Michaela describes the "sickness" she felt when the claimed sightings were made public.
"When Robert called me to tell me that there was a story about these sightings I went into town and I just saw my face on the front of all the papers. I felt sick.
"I wondered, if I was on the other side, if I didn't know me, if I didn't know that I am innocent, what would I think?
"Would I think I had something to do with it? I just wanted to go all around the town screaming, 'It wasn't me.'" She described her ordeal as a "stupid, disgusting soap opera that has no end".
Michaela's words may seem harsh, given that a little girl is still missing, but then she has spent the past seven months standing by helplessly as her life has unravelled before her eyes.
She recalls how, on Monday, May 14, about ten police officers descended on her apartment in Alagoas, the village next to Praia da Luz where the McCanns were staying.
She says: "It was about 7.30am and I was still asleep when I heard the buzzer going again and again. When I opened the door they shone a big bright light in my face and then a group of men came flooding past me.
"Next thing I remember I was in the kitchen and one of them was sitting there with a piece of paper telling me it was a search warrant."
The police confiscated her mobile phone, her laptop and her daughter's computer and then took her to the police station in Portimao ten miles away. She arrived at 9.30am and didn't leave until 1.30am the following morning.
Michaela says: "It was terrifying - all the time answering these questions, knowing you are telling the truth and knowing it doesn't make any difference.
"When I finally got home I had these voices in my head, pictures of the men in my mind. It felt as if I had been raped. They take your innermost feelings away. Nobody has any respect. Nobody cares how you feel. I hadn't been physically raped but still that is how it felt."
But if her first interrogation was bad, things were about to get an awful lot worse. She was questioned twice more. The last time, she says, was particularly brutal.
"That day I was really treated like a piece of dirt," she whispers.
"All I wanted to do was get out of there and make sure my daughter was OK. When they did finally let me go I drove as fast as I could to her school. She came out of the gate and I couldn't speak because I had to keep the tears back.
"I wanted to be like all the other parents, having that normal joy of picking their children up from school but I couldn't.
"She already had the feeling that she didn't want to lose her mummy and I really thought too that I didn't want to lose my baby, my treasure.
"I know I didn't do anything wrong but I've realised you can be an innocent person in this world and they can do anything they want to you - and they will.
"I lost my faith not just in justice but in the whole system and everyone that supports it."
Two weeks ago the police finally returned Michaela's computers to her. The police have never questioned her - or Robert - again, though he remains a suspect.
Yet the consequences of that time have been painful and far-reaching. A devout Jehovah's Witness, Michaela says it is only her faith that has saved her in the darker moments.
She adds: "Nothing made sense any more. I have a lot of respect for life but there was a feeling of not wanting to live, that life wasn't bringing me any joy.
"But I couldn't do that to my daughter. She needs me more than ever now. As a result of all this she is seeing a child psychologist.
"Every time she sees a police car, she ducks her head. She associates this situation with the police. When I take her to school she holds me and says, 'They're not taking you again.' She can't sleep unless she's next to me because she has nightmares."
The financial implications of the investigation have also been devastating.
The daughter of a German hotelier and a Portuguese waitress, Michaela moved from Frankfurt to the Algarve to live with her grandmother when she was 12 after both parents died of cancer.
When three-year-old Maddie went missing she and Robert were setting up an internet-based property company. She says they can no longer afford to advertise it and that she can't get other work.
Prospective employers tell her, she says, that they "have clients to think about". The one thing that has survived is her close friendship with Robert. The pair met two-and-a-half years ago when they worked for an estate agency in Lagos.
At the time Michaela was still living with her ex-husband, Luis Antonio, a swimming-pool specialist, although the couple had separated two years earlier. They are now divorced.
Michaela says: "We have become very close. A negative thing has become a positive."
And she adds: "His family are like a second family to me. And that is another thing: Robert's mother is 71. She doesn't deserve this. This is destroying her. I'm worried about her health."
And that is the nub of it. Even when talking about the positive things in her life, the conversation inevitably turns to Maddie and the investigation. Michaela is, however, determined that she will, one day, put this all behind her.
She says: "I didn't ask for any of this. I'm not forced to accept what other people seem to want to do with my life. How dare people accuse me, a normal human being - and the mother of a child - for the mistakes of others.
"Somebody comes on holiday and I am left to pick up the pieces they left. I'm not going to be put down by them. I'm not going to be trampled on. Sooner or later, even if it takes some time, I will get a job and I will forget all this."
However, Michaela remains reluctant to make any judgment on the McCanns or the case as it stands now.
She says: "I pray every day that that little child is OK. As a mum I feel for her. She is a child, she is alone and she does not deserve to suffer because of something adults have done.
"But if I'm honest I'm sick and tired of all this. It should be so easy. I don't have anything to do with this. I just want people to leave me alone. I just want my life back."
The style of the two artists are completely different. The prices are also different for £22,000 for the Renault Scénic, £4,300 for each painting of Enrique Marty. At that time Clarence Mitchell didnt do any outrageous comment about the artist José Mario Cano for making money. The paintings of Enrique Marty are not a true representation of the reality. His style is different from the style of Jose Maria Cano who is more conform to the norm. It's a satirical style. His painting of Madeleine reminds me the unflattering sarcastic paintings of Francisco Goya the family of Charles IV and also Las Meninas of Velazquez. I like these ugly paintings of Enrique Marty because each of them turns into derision these pictures.
Don't panic and remain calm.
http://tinyurl.com/2hmr63
Looks ok to me and would like to be invited to next meet.
19 REASONS FOR DOUBTING THAT MADELEINE WAS 'ABDUCTED'
compiled by Tony Bennett, 11 December 2007
1. UNLIKELIHOOD OF ‘STRANGER ABDUCTION’
Because the statistics on alleged 'stranger' abductions from a person's home show that a member of the 'abducted' child's family is usually the perpetrator, and the child is usually dead. Something like 90% of all claimed 'stranger abductions' from a house turn out to be intra-family murder. There have been two high profile cases just in the last few weeks - 'Baby Grace' found battered and decomposing in a plastic box on sand dunes near Galveston, and the 'dead baby in the attic'. Both were claimed abductions - hoaxes
2. REFUSING TO ANSWER PJ QUESTIONS
The McCanns didn’t answer the PJ's questions – those are the not actions of innocent parents, who would bend over backwards to assist the police in every way they could
3. ANXIETY ABOUT ‘PHONE CALLS BEING MONITORED
The McCanns expressing anxiety about their ’phone calls and e-mails being intercepted. What innocent parent would worry about that?
4. COCEALING RECORDS OF THEIR MOBILE PHONE CALLS
Their refusal to supply their mobile phone bills to the PJ
5. IGNORING ADVICE NOT TO HIGHLIGHT MADELEINE’S EYE DEFECT
Their ignoring the clearest possible PJ advice not to highlight Madeleine's eye defect - the coloboma (iris defect) - if Madeleine were still alive, it would have put Madeleine at much greater risk of death. Their conduct suggests they knew she was already dead. They deliberately ignored the advice not to make Madeleine so recognisable that the abductors (if she was abducted) would kill her. All the posters emphasising the coloboma, and then the announcement of all the sightings and claims of being right on the kidnappers' trail…all made Madeleine more at risk
6. IMPOSSIBILITY OF THE ANDUCTION HAPPENING AS CLAIMED
The sheer impossibility of the abduction – so many questions, e.g. why did the abductor wait for 35 minutes after the McCanns sauntered down to the Tapas bar, was he hiding behind the door as Gerry McCann checked the children (that's what he claims), did he really walk in through patio doors, then climb out through the window and shutters with Madeleine? And so on
7. CHANGING STORIES OF WHAT THE ABDUCTOR LOOKED LIKE
Jane Tanner’s changed story of what the abductor looked like. Initially 'his head was egg-shaped, he had some short hair, and was carrying a bundle, maybe a blanket', then, a full 3 weeks later - to make sure that the PJ issued a description - 'I definitely saw him carrying a girl in pink pyjamas'. Then after *six* months we get an artist's impression of the abductor and are now told: 'Head not egg-shaped, hair long ,sleek, black and shiny, abductor not white but 'swarthy and Mediterranean' etc.
8. THE PARENTS’ ABSOLUTE INSISTENCE THAT ABDUCTION WAS THE ONLY EXPLANATION FOR MADELEINE GOING MISSING
The parents' immediate and insistent cry of abduction - excluding all other possibilities
9. CLAIMING THE ABDUCTOR WAS A MAN ALLEGEDLY SEEN BY JANE TANNER
Gerry McCann proceeding, after 3 weeks, to issue a description of the abductor based *solely* on Jane Tanner’s dubious sighting - against PJ advice and only after Gordon Brown ’phoned PJ
10. THE ‘TAPAS 9’ PACT OF SILENCE
The 'Pact of Silence' or 'Circle' of the 'Tapas 9' - the notorious agreement between them all to keep silent about the events of that night
11. CHANGES OF STORY
Changes of story. Example –
Day 1: "Shutters jemmied open, windows open, patio doors locked, abductor must have forced his way in".
Days 2 and 3: PJ and Mark Warners say: "No way shutters and window were forced from outside".
Several days later, McCanns: "Oh, we left the patio doors open, so abductor must have walked in through the patio doors and then climbed out of the window and opened the shutters and climbed out of the window with Madeleine"
12. HIRING DUBIOUS PRIVATE INVESTIGATORS
Hiring dubious British private investigation agency and dubious Spanish 'detective agency' Metodo 3 at cost of several hundred thousand pounds - no obvious benefit or results
13. HIRING BRITAIN’S TOP EXTRADITION LAEWYER
Rushing to hire U.K.'s top extradition lawyer – Michael Caplan Q.C. (who represented General Pinochet) - the moment they became formal suspects
14. PUBLICLY AGRREING TO TAKE A LIE DETECTOR TEST – THEN REFUSING
Publicly agreeing to take a lie detector test and then refusing
15. STRANGE EXCUSED FOR BLOOD, DNA AND THE ‘SMELL OF DEATH’
The extraordinary excuses offered by the McCanns in response to the forensic findings of blood, DNA, cadaverine (smell of death) etc., including these six examples:
(a) I took Cuddle Cat to work - that's why the smell of death is on Cuddle Cat
(b) I dealt with 6 corpses in the last fortnight at work, that's why the smell of death is on my clothes
(c) we'll get on to lawyers in Ireland/America who say these cadaver dogs' evidence is useless
(d) the DNA was the children's dirty nappies in the boot
(e) the ‘smell of death’ was rotting meat that Gerry was taking to the dump
(f) the blood in the flat (found underneath the tiles in the children's bedroom) might have been from Madeleine grazing her leg when she boarded the plane, or maybe a nosebleed.
16. NOT STAYING CLOSE TO THE TWINS WHEN MADELEINE DISAPPEARED
Leaving the twins at the creche within days of Madeleine disappearing - and spending as much time as possible visiting the Pope, the White House etc. and campaigning - no parents whose child had truly been 'abducted by a stranger' would let those twins out of their sight, they would cling to the precious two they had left
17. REFUSING A URINE TEST ON THE TWINS
The McCanns, both doctors, refused urine tests for their 2-year-old twins, though later admitting that they ‘could have been drugged by the abductor. They then waited 5 months before going to an agency to carry out ‘independent’ tests. The results of those tests have never been publicly disclosed and it is not known what drugs the agency test for
18. ONLY ANSWERING PRESS QUESTIONS GIVEN TO THEM AT LEAST 2
HOURS INADVANCE
The McCanns stipulating that for all interviews, the press had to present all questions to them at least two 2 hours in advance of the interview, and that they would only answer these questions and no others
19. THE MCCANNS ATTEMPT TO CLAIM THAT THE ABDUCTOR DRUGGED THE CHILDREN
The McCanns explaining away the fact that the twins didn’t wake up - amidst all the shouting when the alarm was raised about Madeleine - by hinting that they must have been drugged by the abductor. They came up with this theory when being filmed by close family friend Jon Corner in August - after leaks from the Portuguese police suggesting that the children had been sedated
TO BE CONTINUED
20. Despite claiming to believe an abduction had taken place, the McCanns NOT seeking details from Jane Tanner about what she saw when she saw the "abductor" walking off with Maddy (allegedly). They did not ask he for details for a couple of days or more because they were "too busy" - according to David James Smith in the Sunday Times (and he seems to have privileged access to their thoughts)! Can anyone here really credit that? Surely one would immediately speak to one's close friend and quiz her on all the details. You would do that immediately - the same night, the same hour. And there is no evidence of attmepts to organise a search in the direction indicated by JT's "sighting".
Hope you all had a happy new year.
I noticed they say it wasn't Murat, interesting after all this time they are still sure especially with spin - they haven't been swayed!!!
I do think again the PJ's lack of conscience, not reinterviewing, doing telephone interview etc will instill beliefs of incompetence.
Who knows with this case I just hope she isn't turning over in her grave!!(sorry but if it were me I think I would be)
The PJ has had the most perplexing case, with FO & worlds media on their backs, I do believe they know exactly what's what and have to tread very carefully and I urge all support for them in their duty - it's still their case - lets support them in finding the truth and bringing justice & closure (of some kind) to this case.
My goodness there's a chilly feel to the reports about the McCanns in the English press now. I can't get over Fox News reports.
'There are dark forces acting against me over the Madeleine McCann case and I cannot speak freely here, so I am resigning from Sky News. Apparently.
This is what someone, masquerading as me, posted on the internet last night until it was removed.
"I have the truth about this sad case, I know what happened on that tragic night," is whatI am supposed to have written. If only.
More chillingly, a former colleague who also discovered "the truth" is said to be dead and I am in fear of my life.
Phew.
I don't think I know any more in 2008 than I knew in 2007, except there are new "witnesses" who saw Robert Murat outside the apartment the night Madeleine disappeared - when he insists he was at home with his mum.
None of them, of course, know him and all have seen his picture a hundred times on telly and in the newspapers.
None of those who do know him and who were out searching that night has said he was there.
In fact, after he was questioned and gave police his alibi, those searchers were all re-interviewed by the police.
They were asked directly if they saw him - and all said they didn't.
Written by Martin, January 02, 2008'
This is the latest update on Sky website blogs page.
I still think they may have been seeing Payne
I think that David Payne looks more to bundleman than to Robert Man.
Well, when Marting Brunt writes that all the persons, that have said to have seen Robert Murat, did all said that they didnt after having been asked directly, did he include the Tapas 3 Rachael, Fiona and Russel?
"The SKY news crime correspondent makes clear, in his blog, 'A Life of Crime' that the several McCann friends that claim to have seen Robert Murat near the Ocean Club the night Madeleine disappeared are not telling the truth. Martin Brunt refers that dozens of local residents from PDL who helped in the search for Madeleine and that know Murat for many years were all questioned by police and told that they didn't see him.'
I feel a gathering of momentum here ;)
The situation seems to have become formal and even diplomatic in relation to the question still to be asked of the witnesses now in the UK. It wll be interesting to see where these lead.
And regarding this thread, actually I think the new format seems to work better than the old ones, at least once people get the hang of it.
Thanks to those translating into English (Jose especially) and everyone else who is keeping me informed and linked to other sources - the case remains fascinating, even if I have nothing to add for the time being.
It truly is like some absurd movie and Met 3 will keep searching, CM will keep bullshitting and the McCanns will keep turning over everystone until no stone is unturned, but then what????? More lives ruined, more suspects, more name-calling, more absurdity, more abuse of Madeleines memory. It would be nice if this case remained open in search of Madeleine yet I know eventually resources shall run dry. The PJ alone must be spending a fortune on this case, with help from somewhere I presume!!!!
The odd thing about this case is that no-one has ever stated any cold hard facts apart from Madeleine went missing, even the PJ have chopped and changed their beliefs, the only person who really knows is the one responsible and Madeleine and I think more than likely it will be the case that this will remain an unsolved mystery for many years to come.
With regards to the McCanns innocence or guilt, one thing does make me ponder. Most people who commit a crime are seen as the "helper" in these situations, going over the top and out of their way to help, hence I think the link with Murat there, that the police thought he was covering his tracks. Yet with the McCanns they too are almost going out of their way to find Madeleine, something obviously every parent would do BUT is it because they have something to hide, has it just spiralled out of their control, something they never realised would happen or is it just simply they have a good publicist!!!!
The one thing at least we can see is that people are being put up left right and centre and seen as suspects yet the only guilty party to date, in my eyes, are the parents who left their children alone.
Lynn x
I read on the M forum someone saying what I had suggested ages ago - that basically the McCanns did not actually leave their kids in the way that has been suggested but that they had to say that they did in order to make the abduction thing stack up. I would suggest that maybe JT and R O'B were actually looking after all the kids. Remember the seven kids in one apartment which surfaced after the Maddie 129 book (I think). So even the one thing we think we can pin on them is in my view up for dispute.
I do hope everyone had a lovely Christmas... we did :)
I've just been reviewing all the recent posts, thanks Jose for the Sky footage as I'd missed it - seems very objective summation to me though.
Dee, I'd not seen the footage of that interview either and the point you made above is exactly right... Gerry is pleased about the confusion between fact and fiction!!! beggars belief and so stands out in the interview particularly his slight laugh at the very thought. And he wonders why people are judging him/them?
My understanding re: Waiter & Tapas monitoring was that after the other couple (tennis buddies of Gerry's) in the bar left they were the only group there, therefore the waiters would have been hanging around and noticed preety much everything. However as i am imagining the scenario now I find myself wondering about the bar quiz and the lady who was called over to join the group.
As you say it just doesn't hang together... but there i am back to the timeline and square one again!
I would like to wish you all a very happy Christmas. I never thought that we would still be at such an impasse after all this time and am amazed by all the developments we have witnessed since last May. I started following the case because of my personal connection with Portugal and because of what I thought was the most terrible news coverage particularly by BBC 24 and Sky News. I watched everyday hoping for good news about Madeleine but was appalled by the ill informed, clumsy and sometimes downright xenophobic comments. I wandered on to the internet to see if I could get early news and to see what other people were saying. I have never done this before and I was struck by the extraordinary active global community of commentators I found. Most of the forums though contained a lot of odd and biased people but I found genuinely sympathetic and concerned people on Steve's site so I stayed here.
(Happy Christmas Steve and thanks for keeping this going.) Commentators came and went and we all had to rest occasionally because it was quite emotionally fraught. As the parents possible guilt came into view things got very heavy and many dropped out because they couldn't cope with how things were going. More recently the media barrage has made me grow more and more cynical so now I don't really believe anything I am told. This may be healthy but it seems to have stripped away some of the empathy I used to have with the people concerned. Some people have taken this to the extreme, questioning why the latest video shows Madeleine receiving the pink bag she used on holiday, are there hidden messages to the T7? and so on, but I find a lot of this kind of crazy. I think if you look too hard you will start to see what you want. I don't know if the McCanns were somehow involved in the disappearance of their daughter - none of us do. But even if they were, I still have compassion for them as human beings because either way they must, inevitably, suffer. I do not feel that I like them very much - but all I have seen is the videos - but I do feel sad for them. I think they neglected their children but I think this was thoughtlessness not malevolence and I can't see the point now in them being charged for neglect. The way they have conducted themselves with the use of M3, the accusations against the PJ, the strange information management, I don't like at all. It seems unnatural and inhuman. If now they want to raise money through books, films and so on - well its not so much that but what it is used for. Is it to try to find Madeleine or is it to pay for their legal team? I know most people who lose someone ruin themselves in the effort to find them but these people seem to think they are entitled to maintain their life style. I don't want vengeance but I would like to see the truth come out - not for me but for the memory of Madeleine.
PS. I would like to also encourage pinkdrummergirl to come back - I feel guilty for joking about her astrological beliefs - I will restrain my schoolboy humour in future. I look forward to the return of Stanley, arm, billie and loads of others.
Cheers everyone.
I don't care if I lose points for it being offensive, I find the whole issue of using the Pope as a photo shoot opportunity offensive.
By the way I'm not replying now and I bet i don't get any up and down arrows....
Surely, THIS is THE forum,...... not that other tabloid one.. ..
It's actually okay if you're thick skinned and choose what you care to look at.
Empathy has an interesting idea about the Mccanns having been "set up" for a greater cause ...to crack an international child trafficking ring..Hence the lack of remorse and tears plus the "campaign behaviour" of the parents and supporters etc..
Yes there is worldwide interest in this case,
There's a thread on the forum '19 reasons for doubting abductor theory' that's been posted from a USA forum, so some people may have seen this already. Yes it does cover old ground but it makes interesting reading anyway. Personally I could add a few more reasons on the end myself!
Vowing never to leave Ptgl without Maddie then flying out asap after being made arguidos.
The early reports of Maddie's comfort blanket that she 'always slept with and wouldn't be without' disappears into the ether and is replaced by the more attractive CC which coincidentally was a gift from Jon C the Godfather and broadcaster of panorama program.
The strange & changing story of Gerry's last check... nothing unusual/abductor in appt. at the time/looking over Maddie as she slept...
CC was a symbol of ? something, not quite sure what?
It's freaky the use of cc.
Admittedly,..the comments about rotting meat, nappies and jeans worn to work whilst checking dead bodies were attributed to "friends"
How on earth did these comments get published?? Didn't Clarrie realise how absurd these innocent explanations sounded?? If you are innocent , why come up with "perfectly innocent explanations" at all?? Surely you are better off sayin nothing, or "I don't know".
I am just amazed that if Clarrie's job is damage limitation, that such stupid explanations keep emerging either from his mouth or from friends, relatives and employees (M3)
Doesn't he have any control over what The Mcaans, their clan and M3 say? What is his job exactly, to take the piss?? (sorry for the slang..)
I wish we had Stanley on this thread again as his snippets from 'Journo - land' via his son were really interesting.
Points? What's the point?
I was saving up those points to buy christmas presents...
(edited to remove split infinitive)
Wheres Stanley? I think he can't get in anymore. My bookmark takes me back to haloscan now, so only way I can get in is by going to crimeblog.us homepage, going down to story where Steve says he's gonna stick to this new format (or was it the other way round) and click on the disqus link. Ok, i'm going to go to Haloscan and leave directions for him and others...a trail of pixels...
Judge has ten days to decide....
The Dialy Mirror reports that Mrs Webster, the mum of Fiona Payne, has told police she did not see Murat.
Quote from that article:
About he fact that Murat interpreted for the PJ on some interviews.
"Clarence Mitchell, the McCann's official spokesman, said: "It is a matter that our investigators are working to get to the bottom of.""
Yeah right, the dreaded M3 I suppose - what exactly are they working on then? I thought they were seeking Madeleine in Morocco or was it Spain, oh no Belgium and Malta that's it.
I don't understand exactly what they would investigate about the fact that Murat was the translator of the PJ before he was made arguido. I suppose that their Portuguese lawyers would have access to the testimonies and also to the person who has done the translation. I don't see the need to investigate it at this stage of the inquiry. In the case of a trial, I also think that these witnesses would be called to the court to report what they said.
These detectives of Método 3 are clearly liers even if they have never said that she will return home before Christmas, their director, Francisco Marco said that he knew where Madeleine was. Everybody knows that's a big lie. They have no idea where Madeleine is.
Nevertheless, the McCanns are satisfied with them. Clarence Mitchell also. They are still paying these crooks. Now Clarence Mitchell tell us that they are investigating facts that are not clearly related with the search of Madeleine McCann. Are they really searching Madeleine McCann?
As for Murat doing translations, clearly he was the best person to do that: a local resident who is fluent in English and Portuguese, experienced in interpretation for the police. How were they to know that he would become a suspect? Also if he interpreted for the interviews with the tapas 9, why didn't any of them say at the time something like " hang on a minute, you were there! lurking outside the apartment " (or whatever it is they are accusing him of). Did they just keep shtum?
I did a bit of a family tree search on Murat. On one site there is an email from him(in 2002) saying to a woman researching the Murat name "If I can help in any way get in touch with me", giving his email address. This, I believe, backs up general reports saying that he is a super helpful guy...which unfortunately has backfired this time.
(edited)
'I have worked with men who abduct and kill children I have some knowledge of this type of crime. I have been asked by the press many times to provide a profile, to assess whether or not the McCanns have killed the children. How does one even begin to answer the questions if one does not have access to the police intelligence and investigation . To comment on profiling can be irresponsible and part of the problem.
I have no idea as to the accuracy of anything. One often thinks when you see a headline . “Madeline seen in car at garage just after the abduction” as to why someone who has abducted a child had not thought before the abduction to fill up with petrol before they grabbed Madeline and why go into a high risk situation. Infact most of the headlines i see do not take into consideration the words “think offender”. However for those police officers and pyschologists in Englnad that may have had access to the enquiry and for the forensic units to have information but to then follow portugese guidelines on secrecy is a problem. Even if forensics who have a context for the DNA do not believe that the DNA in the boot of the car is proof of the McCanns killing their child they are unable to say. Instead we specualte, Why would they, if they were offenders, remove a child that had been hidden so well that no one during the earlier intensive searches suddenly bring the body out of hiding and hide it somewhere else with all of the risks involved? “think offender*'
Link:
http://tinyurl.com/2mnzcx
Beachy's response from M.forum:
'Aside from the fact that Mr. Wrye seems badly in need of some lessons in grammar, spelling, and punctuation, there is a basic fallacy in his argument. There are inherent differences in legal systems, and each country chooses what best suits its customs, traditions, and precedents. No system is perfect; all have their strong points, as well as their drawbacks.
(edited)
So it is with police secrecy during an investigation. There is nothing wrong with that system per se. It has protected the reputation of many an individual who turned out to be innocent. The difficulty occurs when the media of a country with one system attempts to impose its values on an investigation being performed in a country with a different set of rules. The Portuguese are not going to change their laws as a result of this case, nor should they.'
Link:
http://tinyurl.com/3dzfxs
I'm with Beachy on this one, IMO RW stops this side of imperialism with his views on bringing national and local policing all in line. But he is right about speculation and why it starts and gathers speed - and I don't know what the answer is but I wouldn't be suggesting in a public fora that an entire country changes it's whole policing system in light of this case.
So what is this about a pic w/Amelie & Sean and what is the significance? And where the heck is it lol? I dont have a profile pic here yet, just dropped in as soon as the net came back and have nothing to contribute yet, very sorry. But the news is flat except for the M3 fiascos, continuous claims. As the essayist, Hunt was it, tx Jose, said it does keep Madeleine's name in the news. But as she is showing even by writing the essay it also dulls us to that news to have a 'sighting' every 10 days or so or a new suspect line from M3.
Hmmm, this blog isnt goig to hold many comments I see, so there is also a lot of arrow clicking. Ah well we are blessed to have it at all! Back tonite!!
*
Dee I've only just found your reply to the wierd 'big' Amelie sat beside sean pic. I found it by clicking on my comments to see if there were any replies... I've been out a bit lately so not been posting as much. I'm hoping this new thread will grow on me as there are some good extra's to it, but i do miss not being able to click on a button that says 'view all in sequential order' .
Steve is this possible in this version of the thread as it wiuld be good if it was....?
Thanks :)
The lawyer, who assumes the presidency of the Portuguese Bar Association until January, recognize that the legal situation of his clients will not change: "the suspects will remain with this status until the end of the inquiry".
"In Portugal, we can judge an homicide even if there is no corpse - on the contrary of the United Kingdom - that has already happen", says Rogério Alves, adding that it wasn't for that reason that the McCanns came back home. The lawyer assumes that the case is reaching the end (in three months) and the couple "will return to Portugal if it is requested by the Portuguese Police".
Mr Levy why do not you comment of the recent Times article with plenty of new information regarding the eve Madeleine went missing?
Or is it something you are not allowed to say in this democratic world ?
++ Hello. One of the reasons why I don’t make any comments on the work of my colleague David is that I don’t know his sources… I can confirm several aspects of his article but not all. I know and I respect his work as a journalist and writer. I kwon the books he wrote and I suppose that he will wrote a book about the McCann case… if that is the case, I will probably wait to read more about his opinions about this case. Duarte Levy++
I found this thread on the forum yesterday that was repeated again on a different thread today so I had another look at it. Honestly I couldn't for the life of me see what some could see very clearly despite looking and looking at the pictures and even when I did finally see it (Yes this is a bit like those 'magic eye' pictures when everyone else can see the subliminal picture hidden in the pattern but not matter how much you squint, close one eye, open your eyes really, really wide etc. you just can't - until you finally do, then it's so obvious it's all you can see).
See what you see in the picture in the link, taken on May 8th of Gerry pushing the twins in the buggy - look through the cover.
Link here
http://s221.photobucket.com/al.....hchair.jpg
http://s221.photobucket.com/al.....hchair.jpg
quote="beachy"] ... If the fibres found on the towel can be identified as coming from the particular Renault Scenic hired by the McCanns, the next obvious step would be analysing the bloodstains on the towel to see if they are compatible with Madeleine's blood type, and possibly with her DNA (which needs doing in any event and probably is already being worked on). If you get a match, in my opinion, this would be as good as finding her DNA in the hire car - perhaps better. If one can establish that the fibres on the towel came from the McCanns' hire car and that the blood on the towel is compatible with Madeleine's blood type even if DNA could not be extracted from it, this would probably still be admissible circumstantial evidence. It would also be a very, very interesting thing to question a suspect or potential witness about during a re-interview.[/quote]
************************************************************************************
Another excellent posting, beachy!
This is what I have gleaned from the Sunday Express: Portuguese sources say forensic scientists used a substance called Luminol to look for blood deposits and found three sites on the edges of the towel. They tested the blood deposits to see if there was a match with Madeleine's DNA. Although the samples were not good quality, the scientists were able to do what is called low copy analysis, which showed there was "moderate” support to suggest the blood deposits matched Madeleine's blood.
Close analysis of the towel also revealed fibres which were not made of the towel material, and these fragments have been microscopically examined against fibres found in the boot of the Renault Scenic. Portuguese police sources say there was "strong support" that the fibres found on the towel matched fibres from the boot of the car. They are obviously pursuing this line of research further.
While the DNA evidence from the blood found on the towel may not be conclusive, but, in combination with a match from the fibre fragments with the fibres found previously in the Renault, this could be pretty damning for the McCanns! Then match this with all of the other evidence gathered so far, such as the earlier DNA evidence found in the car and apartment, the telephone calls, the 14 text messages, the inconsistencies in the McCann and Tapas 7 testimony (especially on timelines), and even some of the more blatant lies (such as the jemmied shutters), and it is obvious that the PJ are methodically building their case.
The next round of 100 questions that the PJ will be asking of the McCanns and friends will certainly reflect the new evidence found, and I am much more optimistic these days that justice will win out in the long run.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wouldn't that just make my day!!!!
In his book, the Guilt of the McCanns, Catarino claims that the Gonçalo Amaral talked with the District Attorney the night before Kate was interviewed by Police on September 7. They discussed remanding her in custody but could not agree on the offense she should be accused of.
Clarence Mitchell, dismissed the book as “another shameful attempt to make money out of the situation”.
He said: “I would refer any fair-minded person to the fact that neither Kate nor Gerry
have been charged with any offense.
“There is one good reason for that – there is no evidence because they are not involved in any shape or form in their daughter’s abduction.”
Clarence, you don't if there is an evidence against Kate and Gerry. The reason why they are not in jail is only because there is no evidence that an intentional homicide crime has been committed but the Police could have evidences to sustain that Madeleine has been killed accidentally and disposed of her body, in that case there is no preventive jail.
Hernani Carvalho, writer of Maddie 129, appeared to the Portuguese television to say that the the couple had been given “scandalously privileged treatment” over the disappearance of daughter Madeleine.
He added added, according to the Daily Express: “If they were Portuguese they would be in jail by now. There are lots of people up in arms with the scandalously privileged treatment that was given to the McCanns. Any Portuguese couple in these circumstances would have been jailed a long time ago.”
Clarence Mitchell yesterday brushed off Mr Carvalho’s comments:
“That’s his point of view – we disagree,” he said. “Kate and Gerry have not been given any special treatment.”
He insisted police had no evidence to charge the couple with committing any criminal offense.
Personally, I don't think that Kate and Gerry could be in jail for giving up their children because there is the necessity to prove that they have the intention to put their children in danger. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean that there is no evidence that Kate and Gerry have committed a criminal offense as for example of being involved in the disappearance of their daughter, Madeleine McCann. It's not because they were not charged that the evidences are not there. I will advise Clarence Mitchell to wait the end of the inquiry to make any judgment about the evidences collected by the Police.
I think it is very likely that Amaral wanted to jail Kate as at the time things were shaping up this way. I would guess the lawyers told him he had to get a confession to do this. That explains the prolonged interview - was it 11 or 13 hours?
Given that Justine McGuiness has admitted to breaching security by texting Team McCann during this interview - it is also possible that they were persuading her by text not to confess - and then we have the plea bargaining that never happened incident. So all in all I think it was probably touch and go whether they charged her then.
CM is only saying what eh always says.
Also difficult to put pressure on someone if they are getting support from outside.
Private detectives promise to rescue the toddler by Christmas
We already know who is the group that took Maddie
The director of the private eyes agency, Método 3, says he already knows "the group who has taken Madeleine" from the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, on the night of May 3, "in principle, we are dealing with pedophiles".
Francisco Marco just don't know yet if the child is alive but he hopes that "she will return home by Christmas". He ensures that he has "evidences about the displacements" of this group and the next objective will be to rescue Maddie "from north Africa or from the Iberian Peninsula".
Meanwhile, a British tourist who knew the McCanns during their holidays in Praia da Luz reports to the press that she admires the McCanns' couple for having left the children alone at home. She explained that she "admired them for not being paranoids parents" - while Bridget O'Donnell would not do the same for their own children because their apartment "was too far" away from the restaurant where they had dinner.
This tourist was the producer of the popular BBC series 'Crimewatch' and she is the wife of Jeremy Wilkins, also a television producer who played tennis with Gerry during their holidays. Bridget said that she "always believed that Kate was innocent" of not being involved in the possible death of her daughter - because she reminds of having seen her near the swimming pool, some hours before the crime, very "calm and still".
what an amazing coincidence! Producer of Crimewatch no less...
Speaking of coincidences, this case has been compared to that of Natalee Holloway who vanished when shewas 18.
Has anyone seen the "two o'clock defect in Natalee's right eye in the fox news photo? Another coincidence .....
In the M Forum they have picked up on this strange phrase 'angular manifestation' as in:
"Kate's back and shoulders, her hands, her mouth had reshaped themselves into the angular-manifestation of a silent scream,” she said, reinforcing claims "
In that recent article. When I googled it I only found a reference to it in a physics site i.e.:
"Most recently, we have observed an angular manifestation of Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle where the observed spread in angular momentum is set by the..."
Apart from another dodgy site where I feared to tread.
In fact all the language in that article is very strange. Its as if someone is trying to write sylishly and failing. I wonder why.
http://tinyurl.com/2b5dth
His paintings are pictures changed by his brush in a grotesc way. It's a reflection about the compulsive comsumption of images coming from the internet.
He presents a collection of icons, generally anonymous pictures that he has compiled in his work of investigation and web surfing where appears different topics: family albums, works of other artits, movies, and even the McCanns themselves.
Enrique Marty reflects on the nature of the web conceived as a huge storehouse of visual information, invinting us to enter into his work and to share and experiment his visions of this deformed icons.
I did try for ages to post a real pic but couldn't get the sizing right - I'm guessing yours is real 'cos it's on profile etc. x
I found this post in the Daily Mirror forum:
In the interest of finding the truth, it's always a good idea to have the experts weigh in. We each bring our own particular area of expertise to the table but will not have the education and experience in other fields. And the jigsaw must have all the pieces to be complete.
So, in order to flesh out the picture I bring you now the thoughts of a friend of mine who just happens to be a well-trained psychiatrist with many years of experience in the law enforcement field. This person has worked directly with criminals. This is what she had to say. Mind you, this person has never interviewed/examined any of the subjects of this case -- these are just impressions. But after many years in the business and having seeing the same patterns over and over, I would say this individual's observations and opinions are worth not only reading but taking note of. So, with that disclaimer, this is what my friend had to saw about the McCanns after reading up on this case:
GERRY -- Gerry has narcissistic PD (personality disorder) with grandiose ideas, under the thumb though. Could be "folie à deux" or "folie simultanée" it comes in many degrees. E.g. A man points to the sky and says, "Look at that!" "Oh yes!" says another. "I can see it!" See what??! There's nothing there.
Folie à deux and folie simultanée
KATE & G&K -- She killed Maddie, never bonded, Maddie was a nuisance, interfering with the perfect TWINS. Ad drugs, sedation, drink, left on their own, swinging, a lot to lose, big coverup. Interesting that she trained in many specialities, ending in anesthetics!! None are of any use as she has not practiced in ANY of them, well maybe on herself?? She is very controlling, demanding, needy I would say, feeds off G. At home he is weak, frightened of her but loves her -- almost an Oedipus complex. But at work he is ambitious and dangerous, ruthless. Narcissists usually find each other; she is the bully at home, and he is the arrogant bully at work.
Kate is ill, whether she get treatment is difficult to say, she is in total denial, what upsets me, and, I have dealt with many women who have killed their children, is her attitude and her family's behaviour. Its as if Maddie was never wanted, except by Kate's mother.
Read up on narcissists, they want trophy children, Maddie did not fit the bill, she was... a law unto herself.. not easily manipulated.
MADDY: A child is for life, not just for Christmas! Maddie was like an unwanted dog with behavior problems, oh! just put it down.
But it was not an intentional murder, not consciously anyway. I am not that sure WHO did it, mum or dad.
utub video
In that video, she is worried about where the next smack is coming from; she is not sure how she should respond = abuse. If that was the only video they could produce of her, it says it all!! I have 16 grandchildren and a video camera and editing suite, I do not have any pictures as disturbing as that one.
PREDICTION: But they will get away with it, In am sure, whats the point of putting them in prison now, their life is over now, better the ??? over their heads for the rest of their time on this earth, as they are now immortal. So is the child.
I still read with disgust the almost cruel statements from the 3 Amigos - they, along with the rest of us know that Madeleine isn't in Morocco, with this much publicity we are all accepting that it would be too risky to keep Madeleine alive. Perhaps whilst the 3 Amigos are in Morocco they could rescue all those poor children used as "little maids" and do some use with the money they are clearly squandering.
On a personal level, I am very competitive so vote Lynn!!!!! I want the points lol
What I found interesting today is the discussion in the m-forum, if the guardian article tells more than it first seems, that it is to be read between the lines- the author hiding some serious suspicions in her seemingly flattering text.
one elses seems too... sorry just exploring new system. Also there's a bit cut here from our posts as e.g.
"Mrs McCann if you refuse to answer these questions we must suspect you of some wrongdoing. Therefor we would make you an arguido. Is that what you want?"
"If you do that I shall piss off back to blighty."
"But surely you want to help us find your daughter."
"Speak to our lawyers."
Or similar. Maybe someone From Team Mc could suggest an alternative?
What really brought me back was this latest farce of the divers. According to the Portuguese lawyer who is "funding" this (anyone care to bet on that one?) he received information from the underworld on 6th May that M had been abducted, raped and murdered and her body disposed of in this spot. Let us look at this logically. The underworld consists of career criminals it certainly does not include pedophiles. So much so that in jails throughout the world these sickos have to be kept in solitary confinement away from "decent" cons. The only way an abduction would come to the notice of the "underworld" would be if it were a professional gang of kidnappers stealing children to order. So are we to believe that amongst this gang was a pedo who raped M? Why would they murder her? This is if anything a further diversion but a very stupid one. It is one thing for K&G to claim this was a pedo chancer abduction, but to believe that this was a planned operation by a criminal gang is beyond even the wildest claims of their followers.
I arrived early to make sure of a seat towards the front. Then the speakers arrived. Clarence Mitchell and Justine McGuinness shook hands and didn't look like they had met before.
Quite a lot of lone women in the audience but notably only one woman on the panel of speakers.
Comment from another audience member: "I forgot to mention the most pathetic thing I saw at the event tonight.
Shortly after Clarrie walked in and stood up front - at this point less than 8 feet from where I was sitting, some young Christian-looking type walked over to Clarrie and handed him an envelope.
He asked Clarrie to give it to the McCann's.
I knew there was money in the envelope - fairly thick maybe about 20-30 bills inside. The envelope looked clean and respected in a way some people treat an envelope with cash in it. I was close enough to read "Drs. Gerry and Kate McCann". Clarrie looked at the envelope, looked at me, then looked at the envelope again. When he later took the stage and had a seat, he placed the envelope in front of him and looked at it from time to time."
Kelvin Mackenzie, Steve Hewlitt, the 'moderator', and Clarence Mitchell sat at the front table whilst the others sat in the front row.
Kelvin starts speaking: This is the most significant story in my lifetime. There are only 2 known facts: 1) a child is missing 2) Her parents are the main suspects.
Every other story about the disappearance of Maddie is a spin off of these two facts.
Without finding the child this story will live in our lives forever.
Uniquely this was a middle class child who was kidnapped.
The Sun readership is mostly C1's and D2's. When I wrote a story sympathetic to the Mccanns I got the largest ever email bag between 8 and 10,000 emails. 99.9percent of them were against the McCanns. They said that the coverage was classist. There is some truth in that.
Referring to the LSE audience Kelvin said an audience like this is at odds with the population.
How a big story like this works in Britain: normally after 2/3 days journalists covering the case would have been brought together by police, off the record, and they would explain what had happened. The journalists would be given by and large 95% of the story. 5% would be held back.
Newspapers would then run a wholly accurate story which would act as a warning in a dangerous situation and stop speculation
Its now been 272 days since Madeleine has been missing. All there has been is one 3 minute conversation between the Portuguese police and a UK journalist. The stories don't come from the Portuguese police. Portuguese papers run opposing stories every other day. This is a problem for the McCanns. Everyone here is obsessed. Kelvin Mackenzie admits to being obsessed himself.
When papers put the McCanns on the front page, there is a 2 to 3% rise in circulation.
The recent story with Ashley Cole, there is a rise of 2-3 per cent for the first day, maybe the second. With the McCanns it's been that way for 9 months.
Steve Hewlitt asks: " Why are readers so negative? "
Kelvin" because of the neglect. Its a class war issue. Punishment is wanted.
Its an incredible(good) idea to get a PR. They stop the parents from doorstepping, phonecalls etc. I believe that Gerry McCann has gone back to work. (Clarence nods but insists that Kate McCann has not gone back to work and has no intention of doing so).
Ordinary people however don't associate PR with the truth. Now there are stories that Oprah and Barbara have offered all this money.
Clarence: Thats not true by the way.
The PR was necessary but there is a downside. People are suspicious. Sombody needs to help the Mccanns in the modern era. Justine and I are a buffer so that the McCanns can get on with their lives to a certain extent.
I am trying to tell the truth.
Arguido is less perjorative than the word suspect. By the way the McCanns did not phone the press before the police. There are appalling standards of journalism.Journalists are lazy and not checking the facts. Sloppy standards with newspapers. I was with the McCanns for a month as a govt advisor. Then they called me in to help them out. I am not suspicious of them. I wouldnt do this if I was. Briefing from the police mean that I am very happy to defend them. I'm not usually a person that supports causes.
an average front page puts on 70 thousand copies when they lead with the McCanns.
In todays word , with pressure to get broadcasting out, it means standards have slipped.
The Uk press lifts material from the Portuguese press which then recycles the UK press. Its distorted. They should get a green award.
Then an irish guy interrupts and says ' we've heard all this before, stop rambling on". He turns out to be from the Madeleines law campaign.
Clarence apologizes.
Steve Hewlitt asks some tough questions: this is media management ? The Morroccan sighting was untrue. Was it appropriate for this new drawing of a man to be described as a suspect in the manner of the police?
Did the police have this info?
Clarence: yes since May. And we asked Gail Cooper if the police had done a drawing of her description and she said no. So we commissioned one.
Then Roger Graef [created Dispatches documentary, and a criminologist]
After he did the documentary he realized there was nothing really to say, as there were no facts. People are talking about nothing, just unsubstantiated rumour. No sources to confirm anything.
McCanns did not want to work on the documentary or approve of it until Madeleine is found. He tried to be amusing (failing miserably). He said that he was constantly being asked to comment on this story which has no substance to it. He was of the Its disgusting how everybody treats the McCanns school of thought. Really couldn't be bothered to listen to him. But he annoyed me when he said leaving your children alone when you are on holiday is perfectly normal and everybody does it.
Then David Mills (Panorama producer who pulled out)gets up: He's another boring old male fart. He says "It raises issues about police procedure, forensic science in this country, and the British press. There are precedents in the US and there are many parallels between the Ramseys and the McCanns. He says something about the Ramseys being proved to be wholly innocent. (Don't think thats true is it?)
Then a blonde woman sitting next to me catches me tutting and hands me a leaflet for the Madeleines law campaign.
Next its Justine Mcguinness: She immediately comes across as more relevant than the two previous men. She says that the narrative of case is superficially easy to understand... this story plays to everybody's common fears. She says that the McCanns represent aspirational Britain. They've worked their way up from a working class background to 'media' careers ( everybody laughs at this freudian slip) . She corrects herself " medical' careers I mean. She admits that one editor she spoke to admitted that he changed how he covered the story based on the fact that the parents are doctors.
They made decisions at the beginning:
-to pool media access, no exclusives.
-The experts advised them to use the media.
-They made a decision to use electronic communications. And hits on websites had influenced editorial policy.
Roy Greenslade:
Everyone has a view. This story has gone in 4 phases:
1) initially- sympathy
2) skepticism, and its appropriate for journalists to adopt this tone.
3)Long period of suspicion
4) commercial cynicism.
He asks Has the media gone too far? Yes
Has the internet removed editorial limits? Yes
Have the laws on defamation been breached- Yes , people unlike journalists dont care about defamation,thats the nature of gossip.
Questions from audience start:
What this the first missing child in the UK? no
Was this the first missing child case that used a professional PR? probably.
Clarence: the portuguese police don't engage with the media at all. When they went to the british police station and saw the media room, they were like, Whats this? Why you need this?(adopting slight portuguese accent).
Next question from audience:
Has Article 8 the right to privacy and article 10 (couldn't hear) from the Human rights legislation been breached?
Didnt hear answer.
Angela from Sky news: (dumb blonde who asked dumb blonde question) Was this story big because it was a slow news day?
Kelvin: No. The story was huge in itself.
Lady from Madeleines law said angry stuff but cant remember what.
Evening standard journalist said something boring.
Madeleines law lady: What about the fund ? these Private investigators. How much do they cost?
Clarence;Cost of agency 50K? But they are actually costing 7 or 8k but the rest is for operational costs.
Another lady: Whatever happened to the presumption of innocence?
The woman next to me repeated Clarence Mitchells' claim of "knowing" Kate and Gerry are innocent. However, CM and the former Sun editor had said there was no real information - nothing came out of the police's mouths. She then asked him, based on the fact that there was no real information in the public domain, how does he know?
Clarrie replied he knows because he believes Gerry and Kate. She pushed him and stated so if you know because you believe, then you BELIEVE they are innocent. Therefore you don't really know!
Clarrie cowered and mumbled something about semantics, the girl sitting next to you got a nice little clapping for her effort and Clarrie was really humiliated.
Richard Peel Pr guy: Something about letting off balloons.
Justine gets up and defends decision to let off balloons.
I ask a question(nerves thundering through my ears): These men here and Clarence in the past have said thats its normal for British parents to leave their children alone when on holiday. This makes people furious. This sort of media is not helping the McCanns. I was frustrated with what I was reading in the press, it wasn't expressing my feelings and opinions, so I found the forums like the Daily Mirror which has been shut down (and Clarence says Yes we got that shut down) and now the 3arguidos. There are extreme opinions, both pro and anti. I'm a fence sitter who veers towards anti.
I believe that these forums and online comments express a kind of collective gut feeling that something is amiss. I then go on to say, please let me say one more thing: there is no investigative journalism any more. One poster, ellibean, went out to Praia da luz and filmed the distance between the tapas bar and the apartment. No journalist did that. They are all too busy sitting in the bar and using their exes (expenses).
Clarence nodded his agreement about lack of investigative journalism.
Clarence Mitchell: I'm not a PR. I'm a journalist. I'm not putting a spin on it. There is an image problem.I'm not critisizing the police overtly.
Steve Hewlitt: Is it appropriate for the family to be doing this?You are not the police.
Question from the audience about fund and Justine McGuinness' wages.
Justine gets up: I received 55thousand. Actually I was very generous to the McCanns. People have to earn a living.
Woman from Madeleines law shouts" its about a missing child. How dare you?
Justine: I worked 7 days a week. I have 50 voice mails. It was ovewhelming. Turning towards Clarence in plea for support: I'm sure it was for clarence too.
Clarence pipes up and says" well i'm not being paid from the fund, i'm being paid by Brian Kennedy. (slightly smugly i might add)
Then he says loudly: you want facts. These are the facts. The fund earnt 1.2 million from the website appeal. Even now kate and gerry are getting letters with small checks from small kids and old people. They are very grateful.
Now the fund is down to 570k. Thats for private detectives and poster campaigns in spain
Blonde madeleines law lady(find out her name is Debbie Butler) interrupts: I go to spain twice a week. I'm going tommorrow. I've never seen a poster there. Its all spin, its a coverup.
Then Clarence says "it will be down to 346k by end of March. This is publicly donated money.
The fund raising was forcefully raised by the madeleines law couple. Clarence was quite vociferous about there being no fraud, no spin. Nobody got a chance to ask about money for other kids. Clarence did concede that the Mccanns were lucky (lets face it being white middle class professionals with a beautiful kid my words not his) in their coverage and that the fact that say a black working class single mum in the same situation would not get the same support tells us more about the media than the McCanns. I got the feeling the attitude was more well done them for achieving this.( REmember they represent aspirational modern Britain and compassion for others probably doesn't form part of that - this is my opinion only)
There was more but thats the bulk of it. I probably missed out stuff but there will be a pod cast.
The madeleines law people handed out leaflets to people.
Steve hewlitt came up and thanked me for my question which was nice.
My impressions: that clarence actually believes what he is saying. That the other guys david mills and roger mcgraf know nothing and are not impartial.
Justine Mcguinness was well humiliated and shown up for career building greedy guts. She is now the spokesperson for the libdems (oops).
Well I wouldn't say the conference was a clarence triumph at all. Quite the opposite. He seemed to be pleading to be believed really. To be believed that he was doing this for all the right reasons and that he genuinely believed in the McCanns.
I'm surprised by the press reports coming out: their quotes do not reflect the content of the conference in my opinion. Steve Hewlett certainly put Clarence on the spot. kelvin was to the point as always.
So despite the most part of the panel being "pro" mccann, hard questions were asked.
However they talked for an hour and we got to ask questions for less than an hour. So not many questions were asked. I had so much that I wanted to say it was hard to choose.
I took a picture which i will post
In light of the comments about sloppy journalism made by Clarence MItchell as you report ("There are appalling standards of journalism.Journalists are lazy and not checking the facts. Sloppy standards with newspapers.") the following article is of interest. It is the Press Association (news agency) report of the same meeting. Appearing in most papers in the morning and online everywhere, it carries the completely misleading heading: Madeleine's parents 'not suspects' and doesn't even sound like a report of the same meeting PDG has posted about here.
I wonder if Clarence had a hand in the spin cycle here?
copy of PA article follows...
* Published Date: 31 January 2008
* Source: Press Association
* Location: The Press Association Newsdesk
Madeleine's parents 'not suspects'
Madeleine McCann's parents are not suspects, says family spokesman
British police and child protection officers do not suspect Madeleine McCann's parents of involvement in her disappearance, the couple's spokesman has said.
Clarence Mitchell said officials had assured him in private briefings that they were treating the case as one of "rare stranger abduction".
He was speaking as he launched an outspoken attack on the "appalling" standards of some media coverage of the disappearance of the Kate and Gerry McCann's daughter in Portugal in May.
Mr Mitchell, who acted as the couple's spokesman shortly after Madeleine went missing and reprised this role four-and-a-half months ago, said he was completely convinced of their innocence.
He told a packed theatre: "I have never once seen or heard anything from either of them to give me any cause for suspicion in any shape or form.
"I have also had briefings privately from the police and the Child Exploitation and Online Protection (CEOP) centre that also gave me complete reassurance that the authorities, in this country certainly, are treating this as a case of rare stranger abduction, as they call it."
But Mr Mitchell said he felt "shamed" as a former reporter by the "sloppiness" and "laziness" of certain journalists in covering the story.
Speaking at a debate on The McCanns and the Media at the Lond
on School of Economics, Mr Mitchell said: "What we have taken issue with, and our lawyers continue to review, is the aspect of coverage that is not only distorted but wilfully misrepresentative at times of the facts as we know them or the lack of facts. In that vacuum I'm afraid some very sloppy standards have crept in."
He singled out "the sloppiness and laziness of some of the journalists, and the lack of independence of thought and checking of facts".
Mr Mitchell said he understood putting a story about Madeleine's disappearance on the front page could add 70,000 sales to some newspapers, meaning there was "definitely a commercial imperative" to reporting on the case. He assured the audience they could be certain that "every single one" of the negative stories they read or heard about the McCanns was untrue.
Copyright (c) Press Association Ltd. 2008, All Rights Reserved.
And as for the McCanns not being suspects, it was clear that this statement was based on Clarence's own contacts within the British police (which certainly doesn't reflect the opinions of British policemen that I know) and not at all with the Portuguese police.
http://tinyurl.com/2o7bnx
worth a listen if you have 10 mins.
If the story was a kite being flown to see how people would respond to a movie deal (as it is confirmed they were talking to a hollywood film company about a film) it hasn't been very well received; and if it was a smokescreen relating to resignations from the fund - well, I think people know about that too.
McCanns: innocent until proven guilty in regard to the legal process ; but venal, stupid, irresponsible and hubristic on the basis of their own public actions since May 3. IMHO.
The legal process... not holding my breath... will be subject to increasing pressure from all sides, including the diplomatic channels.
Still fascinating though.
3.1.08
Police has new evidence against Madeleine's parents
Investigation about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann from a quiet resort at Praia da Luz had “important developments” in the last weeks, after a Portuguese police team met with Leicestershire police and representatives from Forensic Science Service, the British laboratory where samples collected at the crime scene are being analysed.
On a preliminary report about the case, recently sent to the Public Prosecutor's Office, Polícia Judiciária (PJ) states that the parents remain the main suspects. Among other pieces of new evidence, there is a specific phone call and several messages, send from Ocean Resort, that are classified by investigators as “highly incriminating” Gerry and Kate McCann.
The same evidence also gave indications about how the body of Madeleine McCann could have been taken from the apartment and disposed of. Today, it was confirmed by a source from the Public Prosecutor's Office that a request to extend the time limit for the case will be filed, with the Criminal Court, before January 14, eight months after the first formal suspect was named.
Questions for the friends
The Tapas Group, the friends who had dinner with the McCann on May 3rd, will be questioned again soon, as a formal request to the British Home Office is ready. Police wants to clarify, first, contradictory statements about the night of May 3rd, and PJ detectives would like to interrogate Gerry and Kate before the end of January – something that will depend from the time Home Office and British police will take to proceed with the questionings.
Among many details that are confuse or contradictory, Police sources refer the fact that witnesses confirm they saw Gerry McCann and Russell O'Brien going inside apartment 5A to check the three children sleeping there. The McCann spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, is already preparing public opinion for a new interrogation of Madeleine's parents and yesterday told British Media that Kate and Gerry would be pleased to clarify “misunderstandings” related with their previous statements.
New detectives hired
Hogan International, a company specialized in asset investigations, is reviewing Madeleine's case, working in coordination with Metodo 3, the Spanish detectives company that announced recently they knew who kidnapped Madeleine and promised to find her before Christmas. Sources close to the McCann supporters say that the six-month contract with Metodo 3, which ends around March, will not be renewed and Hogan International will replace them, in the private investigation set up by the McCann, following advise from Control Risk Group.
The McCann legal team has asked private investigators to concentrate in specific details of the investigation related with Police evidence of Madeleine's death and his body disposal, instead of following leads about sightings or other information related with a possible abductor.
Duarte Levy and Paulo Reis
"Editor's Note:
The increase of “troll” activity following the teaser I posted here, two hours ago, was visible in many forums and message boards discussing Madeleine's case. It's curious to analyse some of that activity and look at details about the most prolific posters. This is something that deserves a more researched article. Whenever people wishes to confirm that new evidence has been uncovered, just pay attention to the number of new witnesses or facts showing that Gerry and Kate are innocent and will have their status of “arguidos” lifted soon, published by the British Press. Clarence Mitchell has, indeed, good sources in the Government. He knows a lot more about the case than the legal defence team working for the McCann. But he didn't realized yet that every attempt to anticipate bad news with a disinformation campaign seems almost a confession and, at the same time, it's a proof of the strong and deep connections between authorities in UK and the McCann inner circle of supporters.
Paulo Reis"
"The "trolls" - or astroturfers - on the mirror.co.uk forums operate in shifts.
Although there're obviously more of them tonight, the following names were actively swarming and disrupting together a few nights ago:
vilipend (10 Aug)
rhodes3 (10 Aug)
poorhorse (20 Aug)
amplyjustified (03 Sep)
therese (11 Sep)
pippi (14 Sep)
endreas (14 Sep)
blueberry (15 Sep)
urcrazy (16 Sep)
nicholass (16 Sep)
chad (17 Sep)
charoz319 (24 Sep)
scandinavia (20 Oct)
tiberious7 (8 Dec)
Most are U.S. fundamentalist Christians who seem to believe in the McCanns' statements as unquestioningly as they do the myths of their faith.
How shrewd it was of the McCanns to not only remember they were Catholics but to go and kiss the Pope as well."
Remember I said I had three trolls chasing me recently well Blueberry led the pack saying I was 'sick minded' and 'needed professional help' (she tends to follow me around if some of the more popular regulars aren't in) then there was therese and poorhorse, I've also had a more recent run in with scandinavia who just questioned every single word I said. I try to keep out of their way but it's difficult when they follow you to every topic you comment on and mock everything or keep asking for 'links' & 'evidence'. Blueberry (and I think it was Vilipend) made me laugh the other day when we were discussing CCTV in PDL as I pointed put to her she'd obviously never been there but the people she was arguing with had; I asked if there were any Ptgse friends online and two came into the conversation and disputed everything she said and agreed with us. Bless her she still came back with some guff about how limited CCTV was at the MW resort until someone then posted the location of the cameras; gotta hand it to them for tenacity but I wouldn't get into anything with any of them unless you're prepared to see it through to the bitter end and face a barrage of personal insults. I believe in free speech but MF must know they are purely in it to disrupt but I guess they are afraid of the backlash.
BTW have notice how so many people on the MF now are claiming to have inside information? A poster made a funny comment "does everyone on this forum have a source now, but me?"
In a further blow for Madeleine’s parents, police files against them will not be made public next week after the authorities applied to extend their investigation. Kate and Gerry McCann, who remain official suspects (arguidos) in their daughter’s disappearance, had hoped to discover what evidence detectives had against them on January 3 when a crucial secrecy deadline passed.
Under Portuguese law the police must make their findings public eight months after an investigation is launched.
But the McCanns and Robert Murat – the only other official suspect – will have to wait for at least three months to gain access to the files following the postponement of the deadline. This is allowed because prosecutors have awarded the investigation “special complexity” status meaning normal rules can be ignored.
Carlos Casimiro, a magistrate and expert in Portuguese penal procedure said the deadlines could be extended indefinitely because the case remains so high profile. He told Portuguese newspaper Diario de Noticias he thought the most likely outcome – even after two extensions – would be “the delay of the investigation in a desperate attempt to seek enough evidence to make an accusation”.
What exactly is the 'special complexity' that allows normal rules to be unobserved?
That means that the inquiry will not be closed by January and that the PJ detectives don't want that the suspects and their lawyers have a free access to the files before the end of their inquiry.
Maddie's case can drag on for six months
In January, the investigation of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann will reach the maximum period of eight months defined in the Penal Procedure Code. So this month is pointed by several lawyers and also by some elements of the Judicial Police (PJ) as a "decisive" date . But the Ministerio Publico (MP) can extend the period of the inquiry.
The problem is to know by how many months should the process continue, taking into account the fact that this body does not know what kind of crime has been committed.
The expert in penal procedure and also president of the Union of Magistrates of Public Prosecutors (SMMP) for the of the district of Évora, Carlos Casimiro, explained to the DN that "the outcome of this process depends exclusively on the definition of the type of crime that has been committed against Madeleine McCann".
The magistrate says that "the PJ is maintaining two theories - one is the abduction and the other is the homicide crime.The extension of the deadlines as defined for the investigation depends on the type of the crime". In this contest,he explained that "also for each type of crime, there are several deadlines for the extension of the inquiry, because there are also different types of abduction and homicide crime". "A crime of abduction might be, for example, a few hours kidnapping and for a homicide crime there is a wide typology. For each one there is a specific deadline".
According to Carlos Casimiro, if the detectives conclude that Maddie has effectively been murdered and if everything is still performed publicly relatively to the perpetrators of the crime, in January the MP can request the extension of the period of the investigation for more three months. At the end of this period, if the the same incertitude is maintained, the MP has the possibility to request a second delay which can only be for more three months. After that, there are only two possibilities: the closing of the investigation for lack of evidence or as the magistrate thinks to be more "foreseeable" that there will be a "delay of the inquiry in the desperate attempt to seek evidence to sustain an accusation".
Carlos Casimiro said, "we are in presence of a highly internationally mediatic case and it is the image of the country that is at stake". Moreover, he stressed, "the Judicial Police has been, since the beginning of this process, perfectly slandered, essentially by the British press and this is why its reputation and its high professionalism should be preserved".
After the disclosure on the 23rd of the video made by the McCanns during the first Christmas since the child disappeared showing images of the girl excited and opening the presents of last year, the agency of Spanish private eyes, Método 3, which works for the couple in the investigation of her disappearance, has already received 347 calls with alleged information about her whereabouts.
The new information is now being examined by the detectives of Método 3, one by one. And according to the DN, that agency "does not throw away any information whatever it it comes from."
Presently, the detectives focus their attention especially in Portugal and Morocco, in the city of Marrakesh.
"Portuguese officers, widely criticized for a series of blunders in the Madeleine case, have never succeeded in tracing Ridout.
"The spokesman for Madeleine's parents Gerry and Kate confirmed that the Spanish detective agency working for them, Metodo 3, was seeking more information on the missing man.
The pub of the parents of Christian Ribout is nicknamed as "The Plough and Paedophile". Christian Ribout is widely "disliked in the the tight-knit community".
He sent 25 obscene messages to the 12 years old girl. The mother of the girl called Christian Ribout and said to him "If you come anywhere near my daughters again I'll kill you".
The very same night he disappeared.
Now, I really understand why the McCann team was so pleased with the last interview of the McCanns. That's the kind of story that Método 3 should investigate after having done a proper propaganda in the press.
In a first time, it is reported that a dangerous pedophile has not been found. His name is secret. The Portuguese Police is incompetent because he was never found. The public read it and naturally people said give us his name! He is a monster. He should be arrested.
Then the second story is published the name and the crimes of the monster. A pedophile who do phone sex. Don't worry, that's a mission for our heroes, Metodo 3, who will discover where he is and his cellular would be confiscated.
Investigation: The inquiry will not be completed in January
MP wants to extent the expiry date of the secret of justice
The Ministerio Publio (MP) should ask the extension of the secrecy law in the Madeleine Case. On January 3, it will be eight months since the disappearance and at the end of this period the process should become public. A source closed to the investigation confirmed to the CM that however "it is likely that the MP will ask for the postponement".
Presently, it is more than certain that the inquiry will not be concluded in January - the Letters Rogatory are still in Portugal - and neither the PJ nor the MP wants that the information, that has been already included in the process until now, should become public before the end of the investigation.
"After the eight months period, the Penal Procedure Code (PPC) provides the possibility to request the postponement of the lifting of the secrecy law for three months", explained to the CM a source of the MP. "Then the judge of Justice may or not approve the request", adds the same source.
After the request of the MP and the approval of the judge, the Madeleine case should only become public in April 3. At this date, the process could be then be consulted.
At the end of the three months, there is also another possibility to postpone. For this, the MP could request a delay that is "objectively appropriate and necessary for the conclusion of the inquiry", continues the same source of the MP.
However, according to the new code, this second extension applies only to the cases of terrorism or highly organized crimes that involves crimes such as crimes of conspiracy, trafficking of persons, arms smuggling, drug trafficking, corruption, trafficking of influence or money laundering. So far, the Madeleine case has not been classified as one of these crimes.
A source closed to the inquiry assured however to the CM that "the Letters Rogatory are almost ready to follow to England". After the dispatch having been scheduled for the las week, the same source explained that "it is a complicated process because it involves the translation of documents with legal terms".
There is however still a certain date for the dispatch of the Letters where the Judicial Police defines the questions and what persons should be questioned in the British Soil.
Blue Bag
The disappearance of a blue bag from the apartment where the McCanns were spending their holidays, now revealed by Gerry, has been investigated by the PJ at the beginning of the case.
Pedophiles
A source closed to the investigation ensures to the CM that all the British pedophiles that were in Portugal, May 3, were investigated and cleared.
The researched Briton has not been seen during the last two years
The Briton that the Police has not been able to locate is in fact Christian Ridout, son of the owners of a pub at Praia da Luz. The man, 32 years old, has disappeared from Portugal two years ago after he has harassed by SMS a young girl of twelve years. The information not confirmed by the Judicial Police adds that the Briton is better known as DJ Shifty.
"There is no indication that he was at Praia da Luz, May 3", says a source closed to the inquiry contacted [yesterday night] by SOS Maddie, who adds that "the individual is not known for pedophile activity in Portugal".
Barman and disc jockey, Christian has not been seen at Praia da Luz since 2005 but Clarence Mitchell, the head of the McCanns' image, said now that the agency of private eyes, Método 3, is considering him as suspect.
After having sent dozens of messages with sexual proposals, the man had been confronted by the mother of the girl and then he fled to Spain where his car has been found abandoned near the airport of Seville.
"The work of Método 3 until now speaks for itself. This information has for us the same value as the previous ones", says the same source, noting that the line of the inquiry is maintained.
http://tinyurl.com/39hzgu
"She has been let down by the criminally incompetent Portuguese police force.
And by the £50,000-per-month Spanish private detectives and their dangerous, macho boasts of bringing Madeleine home by Christmas.
And by the poisonous hacks of the lurid Portuguese press.
And by the British people who flood internet chat rooms abusing Madeleine's parents for leaving her alone, as if apportioning blame somehow makes the tragedy of a missing child any less."
Obviously the complaints last time had no effect on this stupid man.
and thanks Andrea, for your supportive comments...
Although Clarence Mitchell denied the claim that Portuguese police had been unable to find a blue tennis bag “big enough to carry a small child”, Kate did report a story about a bag when they returned to England in September.
The Sunday Sun did report at that time that Kate said of the police: "They are basically saying, 'If you confess Madeleine had an accident, and that I panicked and hid the body in a bag for a month then got rid of it in a hire car, I'd get two or three years' suspended sentence".
The Daily Star claims that Gerry Gerry "was reportedly seen with the holdall as he took up to three tennis lessons a day on the ill-fated holiday that ended with Maddie, four, vanishing".
Vanessa Allen in the Daily Mal also writes quoting Sky News that "detectives think the blue holdall could have been used to carry Madeleine away, or even to transport her body".
She also adds "Portuguese police worked for several months on the theory that Madeleine died in her parents' holiday apartment and that her body was somehow transported to a hiding place after her death, but have been unable to find sufficient evidence to prove such a claim.
"Forensic samples which they hoped would prove her body was transported in her parents' Renault Scenic, hired 25 days after she went missing, proved inconclusive".
In certain papers it is suggested that someone, may be a pedophile that has not been found, used the bag to transport Madeleine McCann. In other newspapers it is reported that the Portuguese Police is only working on the theory that Madeleine is dead and disposed by her parents in the blue bag of Gerry.
I also join you all in hope for resolution in this case and justice for Madeleine.
Best wishes,
Liz
xxxx
Cheers to A Happy, Fun & Safe Holiday,
Dee
Happy Christmas and a Wonderful New Year to you all.
xx
The only bit I found hard to swallow was the "love you Madeleine" at the end of the video, I just imagine how I would be, Gerry seemed distant, perhaps a protection mechanism, I am not going to analyse body language as I think perhaps they simply are very stagnent since this whole sad sad case.
I did find it interesting that Gerry was described as a joker and the life and soul of the party, one look at him now shows a man who shall never be that again.
At this time I just feel that I shall have faith in the judicial system and hope that the truth is outted and whatever the outcome I hope Madeleine knows how much she is missed by all, those who loved her and those of us who in a strange way I cannot describe have grown so fond of her. Looking at my little ones sleeping safely I still can never comprehend how Kate and Gerry could contemplate leaving them. Not wanting to go over old ground but to me that shall never be something I will ever understand about this case.
I think it is nice to keep the presents for the twins and Madeleine, after all people wanted them to have them, the rest of the presents have been sent to places where children needed them. Sometimes it seems the McCanns cannot do right for doing wrong, I do think they deserve a break, I do pity them, even if they are responsible for Madeleine going missing, I shall still pity them for what they must be going through trying to keep up a facade must in itself be as painful as loosing Madeleine. At the end of the day, they wouldn't have intentionally killed her so they (if guilty) still have lost and are grieving for a daughter.
May you all have a warm and wonderful Christmas filled with happiness and love, I wish the same for Madeleine xx.
Happy Christmas and a wonderful New Year to you all.
xx
I am upset that all the Christmas parents that are supposedly are arriving are not being re-directed to to some kind of "toys for kids" charity and an appeal could have been made to donate a gift in Madeleine's name to xxxx for instance. Of course that would interupt the fund too. Maybe they will sell the toys for the fund (kidding)? Did you all notice in the video the kids kitchen center? WOW I have never seen anything like that...ever! These kids are obviously not lacking for material things.
“If they are overwhelmed by presents for Madeleine and the twins they will consider giving some to charity again.”
http://tinyurl.com/3aaetr
I don't know what to think.
What's wrong with this picture? It just makes me feel very uncomfortable when i know so much about the case... the 40 - 120 questions never answered, the contradictory statements, the fund!!!, the 3 amigos, the get out Portugal as fast as you can, the speedy washing of anything the dogs smelled death scent on - cc, jeans etc., the appalling attitude towards the PJ from the start, the govt. spin Drs & assistance from FO from the word go... I could go on. Then the appeal vid takes on a whole new light.
http://tinyurl.com/2npq98
Its all the fault of the police apparently:
"Then, in January, the police investigation into Madeleine's disappearance on May 3 (which was nine days before her fourth birthday) is likely to be wound down.
Could "investigation" even be the right word to describe an inquiry that has been undermined by incompetence, negligence, errors of judgment and a campaign of disinformation which has resulted in Kate and Gerry McCann being publicly vilified and declared "arguidos" or official suspects?
Detectives who were so convinced Madeleine died in the McCanns' holiday apartment in Praia da Luz now believe she was abducted after all, as Kate and Gerry McCann have always maintained. If Madeleine were not still missing and her parents' reputation sullied by unfounded allegations, it would be almost comical.
Even without the wretched Portuguese police, the events of the past year would have probably destroyed many marriages."
And they are winding down! Are they?I thought they were poised for more questions for the T9.
http://tinyurl.com/2yxu5n
Liz
"A few comments:
(1) Low copy number DNA analysis has been used successfully in trials in several different countries, including the UK, the US, New Zealand, and others. I am posting a link to a report by Dr. Peter Gill in which he lists a number of high-profile cases that were solved using LCN/DNA:
http://www.forensic.gov.uk/for.....r_000.doc.
I am not aware of any country where LCN/DNA use is banned or forbidden. There are a limited number of labs that can do it, and many countries do not currently have a lab capable of performing such analyses. Not all countries are as forthright as Portugal in admitting that there is a more advanced lab somewhere else that can do things perhaps better than their national lab, and if anyone can do it better than they can, they want to give it a go at the best place possible. There is no scientific reason that LCN/DNA analysis should not become more and more widely accepted as the technology becomes more available. The Americans got some amazing results using LCN at the time of 9/11, and the technology was not nearly so advanced 6 years ago as it is now.
(2) One thing that bothered me about Omagh from the beginning of the trial is that early on I read that the LCN had only been run twice. For optimal results, it should have been done three times. Running it three times gives a greater basis of comparison to eliminate two potential problems called "allelic dropout" and "stutter." They know that now, and doubtless the DNA in Madeleine's case will receive a third analysis.
(3) Obfuscation by an expert witness will work better before a jury of laymen than it will work before a panel of judges who see these things on a regular basis. Perhaps Portuguese judges are not used to dealing with LCN/DNA, but I am sure they have seen DNA evidence many times.
(4) I rather got the impression that one of the biggest problems with the Omagh trial was that more than one police witness had lied about how the evidence was collected."
...another good comment from Beachy who clarifies why we can't assume that the DNA evidence will be pulled apart in the same way as in the Omagh case.
http://tinyurl.com/226fc8
By Alex Watts In Barcelona, Thursday December 20, 2007
Private detectives hired to search for Madeleine McCann have moved to plush new offices as questions emerge about whether they are giving good value for money.
People who donated to the Find Madeleine Fund are seeing Metodo 3 pocket £50,000-a-month of their cash - without any apparent breakthrough.
The group has not yet produced any evidence to back their claims that they know who took the girl.
Boss Francisco Marco claims he knows the girl, who would be four years old now, is alive and could be reunited with her heartbroken parents Kate and Gerry for Christmas.
But he was not available to speak to Sky News Online by phone and on arriving at his office in Barcelona, it was claimed he was out of the country - working on a different case.
At a supposedly crucial stage in the inquiry, his luxurious new office - perched above a gay sauna in a grand, pillar-filled building - was in a make-shift state.
There was just one staff member in sight, and when asked if Sky News Online could see Mr Marco, she replied: "He's not here, he's out of the country on business. Not with the Madeleine case, on another case."
Her advice was to return in two hours, when the office would re-open.
But on calling back at 4pm there were three staff and a small dog in the reception area, as well as a steady flow of people unloading boxes of files and other office equipment.
They refused to say anything, and grew steely when Madeleine was mentioned.
A few minutes later, a smartly-dressed detective arrived and refused to discuss anything to do with the case.
He kept stressing: "I can't say anything. Only Clarence Mitchell (the McCanns' official spokesman) can talk about the case. I'm sorry."
This was a far cry from Mr Marco's astonishing claims just a few days before that he knew who had kidnapped the little girl.
His comments sparked reports of a stand-up row with the McCanns, who accused him of harming the chances of finding their daughter alive.
On calling the spokesman the day after Mr Marco made his claims, Mr Mitchell said he knew nothing about them.
He questioned why, if Metodo 3 knew where the vanished girl was, they did not go and get her.
It also seemed strange that if Mr Marco had a major breakthrough to report, then he should tell a newspaper before his clients.
Although Mr Mitchell says he is pleased with Metodo 3's "operational work", sources close to the family have reportedly warned that the chances of its contract being renewed when it runs out in March are "virtually nil".
Why do I keep thinking that the row between the McCanns and M3 is a facard and he was just saying what they wanted by claiming he knew where she was and so on. he is a smoke screen and I think he knows it - quite happy to pocket the money. But the McCanns have to pretend to be cross so they not associated with the ridiculous spectacle.
Least they got new offices out of Madeleine, hate all this I really do.
I'm a bit dim about this. I don't want to post anonymously but trying to log on as my name is proving difficult. I am a luddite!
Help please....
Anyway. Just to recap. We have mc in the hello magazine. Well that is the kiss of the marriage deaths. Ever heard of the "curse of Hello"?
If they are featured in this mag, well I can guarantee it will be a mega moneyspinner for that publication. Who would miss seeing all about them? Even if it is set up for the cameras. It sells.
All the best,
MG
The curse of Hello, yes that did occur to me too. Other thing that is kiss of death for marriages is having a child die or disappear.
But then, I have neither lost a child, nor known what it's like, but I look to the dignity of people like the Soham families and compare and contrast. Nuff said I think.
too much sadness perhaps, they look at each other and they remember...
Crime leaves so many victims, not just the initial victim, it spreads out like ripples in a pond.
When my brother in law committed suicide, the father of my child ended our relationship. I could see his mind tick over, life is short, grab my freedom and run...
Is it because they wanted/needed baloney; not steak?
By VANESSA ALLEN
Thousands of Portuguese telephone records have been seized by police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
Detectives are trawling through the paperwork looking for unusual patterns of calls around the time she vanished.
Head of the inquiry Paulo Rebelo ordered the check across Praia da Luz, Burgau and Lagos - a region which has a population of 27,000.
He has gone back to old-fashioned policing methods after forensic evidence failed to provide any breakthroughs.
The operation indicates the team believes a local accomplice may have been involved in aiding Madeleine's abduction.
Detectives have begun the process of contacting up to 1,000 locals whose records or mobile signals show they were in Praia da Luz on the night of May 3.
Officers are particularly interested in the time between 9.30pm and 10pm, when they believe Madeleine disappeared.
One resident said two detectives visited her on Tuesday, armed with two sheets of paper containing hundreds of numbers.
They asked her to confirm her mobile number and then asked her who she had called at 9.50pm on May 3.
She identified the number as her husband's mobile and said the officers told her: "We are investigating all calls made within Praia da Luz from 9.30pm onwards on May 3."
She said four of her neighbours had also been contacted by police about calls they made.
Detectives can use the "triangulation method" to pinpoint users who were in Praia da Luz on May 3. Mobiles give out signals every time they make or receive a call or text message, and when they are switched on and off.
Those signals are logged by phone masts and from measuring the strength of the signal to local masts, experts can identify precisely where a phone was used.
Kate and Gerry McCann were said to be "encouraged" by the police work.
"Any information could prove vital," their spokesman said.
These news seems to be suspicious in the measure that they are not reported in the Portuguese press and also because they are signed by Vanessa Allen, a master in manipulation.
If the McCanns are involved in the disappearance of Madeleine, someone help them to transport the body out of the resort. If it is not Robert Murat nor a friend of the Tapas 7 who had a car, then it is someone living near Praia da Luz known by the McCanns or their friends.
I have seen some weeks ago a old case about four girls who were raped and buried in the beach in the north of France near Bethune at Sainte Cécile. It was incredible. There were all in a huge hole, the first was at only at 70 cm under the sand. The Gendarmerie (French Police) was with sniffer dogs who have detected nothing. It was one of the abductor who indicated the place. At that moment, I thought that Madeleine could effectively been buried in the beach without having been detected by the dogs.
Paul Byrne in Praia Da Luz 20/12/2007
Police searching for Madeleine McCann are scrutinising all local phone calls made on the night she disappeared.
Portuguese officers believe several people might have been involved in snatching her from her parents' flat and are keen to find any odd pattern of calls in Praia da Luz after 9.30pm on May 3.
Detectives in the Algarve resort will speak to as many as 1,000 people about their phone records.
One woman told how officers arrived at her home on Tuesday with sheets of paper containing hundreds of mobile and landline numbers.
They quizzed her about an innocent call made to her husband on the evening of May 3. Madeleine's parents Kate and Gerry McCann are said to welcome news of the phone blitz.
It is believed police will also ask to see their phone records for May 3 when they quiz the couple in the New Year.
Their spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: "We are encouraged to hear that the police appear to be doing a very thorough job of tracking down people who were in the area at the time."
Technology using phone masts - called "Triangulation" - can pinpoint a mobile phone user's position. But masts in Portugal are stretched widely on the coastline, hampering the tracking process.
Celebrations: Great parents maintain the tradition
Maddie will have gifts for Christmas
Disappeared more than seven months, Maddie continues to have this Christmas the same attention as her twin siblings, by the part of her great mother Eileen. The mother of Gerry, 67 years, revealed yesterday to the British press that she will not forget her eldest granddaughter - and as always, she will "pick out clothes and put money in a little envelope" for Madeleine. The grandmother ensures she will not despair or "give up hope", "as long as they don't find her body".
Also Susan Healy, mother of Kate, says her daughter "doesn't want it to be Christmas" this year, but the family feels the obligation "to do something for the twins". Any way, "it has been the most difficult period" "since Maddie disappeared" - in their house at Rothley, Leicester, there is no sign of Christmas and the family wants this year a "very quit, private Christmas".
Susan believes it was "diabolical" that her daughter and her son-in-law were made suspects, adding that "people are so intent on trying to find scapegoats, nobody is looking for Madeleine.".
Philomena McCann, sister of Gerry, says that in the family "nobody's been talking about Christmas" and they only want "it want it to pass quickly -but they've all agreed that none of the adults in the family are buying presents for each other".
However, several British newspapers have already assured yesterday that the Police will only interview the couple McCann and their friends who spent their holidays in Praia da Luz, Algarve, after December 27, just after the Christmas period.
The interviews will be conducted by the British police but with the assistance of some elements of the Judicial Police that will go to England. The spokesman of the McCanns, Clarence Mitchell, welcome the fact that "Kate and Gerry will be able to have as normal a Christmas as possible in the circumstances", but he is keen for the process to be completed as soon as possible. "No one has anything to hide".
Controversy: English people say José Manuel Anes attacked PJ
Family's lobby is powerful
After having contacted José Manuel Anes, the Daily Mail published yesterday only two answers made to the four questions. "One of them was even distorted. I made a general comment about the criminology without criticizing the inquiry of the Madeleine's case in particular". What the criminologist said, "but has not been published", is that "the McCanns have a foundational guilt for abandoning their children - and there is a powerful and influential lobby that has been controlling the information".
The newspaper also quotes in the interview the former expert of the Laboratory of the Scientific Police, that has been published in the book 'The guilt of the McCanns' and 'is now distorted in the British press'.
The criminologist confirms to the CM that he said that 'it could be spent rivers of money in analysis, but without a proper preservation of the crime scene, there is nothing to do - it's a complete waste of time'. He only ensures that he has always kept "the due distance in relation to this case in particular'. He just made "a general comment about the criminal investigation".
Yesterday, the "distorted" statements of José Manuel Anes could be read in the 'Daily Mail'. The expert would have said that no suspect will face the court in this case because of the mistakes committed by the Police in the hours after the crime. Defense lawyers would demolish the presented scientific evidence. Clarence Mitchell, spokesman of the couple, soon appeared in public: "It is alarming to hear Mr Anes".
At the margin
The British press reported yesterday that the Portuguese Police will send new vestiges collected in the apartment of the Ocean Club where the McCanns spent their holidays for analysis to the Laboratory of Birmingham. According to the Daily Mail, they can point to the death of Maddie. But a source closed to the inquiry said to the CM that this "makes no sense".
'The guilty of the McCanns'
The book that is causing controversy in England is from the José Manuel Catarino, chief of the Redaction of the 'CM'. It is prefaced by Francisco Moita Flores and José Manuel Anes and the book has already been the target of the spokesman of the McCanns. After the launch day, December 6, Clarence Mitchell said that their lawyers were considering a lawsuit.
Correio da Manhã say that José Manuel Anes has been contacted by the journalist of the Daily Mail. So the source has been perfectly checked. So it's not in this case, a problem that the source has not been checked because in fact it has been checked.
The journalist is using a old politician trick: whatever are the statements that you made, they arrive always to the same conclusion. José Manuel Anes explained that the scene of crime has been contaminated not by the Police but by the people who was in the room before of the arrival of the Police. Vanessa writes that Police has made mistakes in few hours after her disappearance.
"Huge amounts of money were spent but if, in the first hours, the due precautions for the preservation of the crime scene were not taken, all this hard work goes down the drain," she adds quoting words that were not said by José Manuel Anes.
In fact, Vanessa Allen is not interested in reproducing exactly what was saying José Manuel Anes, she is just interested in reporting her perverted version of the truth: Portuguese Police are incompetent that's why the McCanns are innocent and also this why the McCanns will never be judged.
Vanessa Allen is the same journalist was has used the Joana Case to discredit the Judicial Police of Portimão to sustain the theory that Joana has been abducted by a pedophile ring and this also the case for Madeleine. This propaganda has been widely used by the McCann team with the ex-Detectives doing this comments in several TV documentaries in different countries.
Returning to this article, what is also interesting are the statements of Clarence Mitchell - the same person who has declared that the British journalists should verify their sources before publishing it and when he was a journalist he published an information only if it has been confirmed by three sources. He said : "It is alarming to hear that Mr Anes has this view. All we want, and have throughout, is to ensure the operational police side of this has done in an effective and efficient manner as possible."
Indeed, it's alarming to hear a view that is not the view of Mr Anes, at all. And it is also alarming to hear Clarence Mitchell suggesting that probably the police has not been effective and efficient as they should be. And off course, Clarence Mitchell certainly knew that the statements of Mr Anes were untrue because he knows how badly the British journalist are working at Praia da Luz.
I think that in this case, there is a connivance between Vanessa Allen and Clarence Mitchell. They are just trying to manipulate the public opinion. It's not only lazy journalism, it 's also intelligent propaganda.
For me the question is: are this kind of journalist paid to write these papers or are they just manipulated by Clarence Mitchell who knows how they work?
And there is also the possibility that these papers are made on the order of the McCanns to promote the abduction theory.
The job of Clarence Mitchell consists in denying everything that is published against the McCanns and also to spread news sustaining the abduction theory.
Clarence Mitchell said that the McCanns are satisfied with the work of Método 3 and their contract will probably renewed. So I am more and more convinced that the function of Método 3 is precisely to promote articles in the newspapers reporting their "strongest theory" that Madeleine is alive and has been abducted by a pedophile ring.
So the Police should not suspect the McCanns and they should try to find Madeleine. They don't care that Método 3 says lies like we know where Madeleine is, we are sure that she is alive. Everybody knows that they are lying but for the McCanns it's the kind of distorted news that should be published because they think that it can help them to prove their innocence and that will stop the Police in their inquiry against them. Also any kind of news that says the Police did not do its job properly is always a good news for them because it could influence the inquiry. I think that's the motivation of all this false news with distorted facts that have been printed in the press.
Gonçalo Amaral has been the first victim of this campaign and something told me that he could not be the last.
In fact in the same British newspaper which publishes an article against the Portuguese Police, you can have also false news against the McCanns as the one about the new DNA evidence send to the FSS. One day they seem to be for one side, the other day for the other side. I think that the deontology of these newspapers is mainly oriented in sales.
Not sure if it just me but surely an innocent person would stand up and be counted. I do not know for sure if we are all the same but I know I wouldn't take it anymore. I would also shut CM up for good, he now irritates me just by looking at him (oops sorry but it is true)
Imagine that your child was gone and the police were faffing around with dogs and DNA - a day wouldn't go past that you didn't scream at them to get off their back sides and find your child. Or if you had the resources you would hire a proper agency and be out there with them looking. The M3 thing just makes me think they know she cannot be found. Gerry's gone back to work for gods sake.
Thanks for directing me here. I have to say I prefer the simplicity of haloscan, but if most of you are here, well then here we are! I Still look at HS btw.
Anyway,
As it is the holiday season, I am going to be a bit glib (apologies if I offend anyone), and say, IF>>>>> there is a court case with the MCs on trial who amongst all the posters here would like to be in the public gallery?
MEEEEE for one, and I don't care if its PTG or UK,
OK sorry,
Maybe a bit before the mark. No offence intended, but I will be there, wherever and whenever it is.
The powerful lobby of the Mccanns... do you think that when/if the Mccanns had their accident with Madeleine, they sat down and thought this through... we need a PR, we need a detective agency to divert the investigation, how are we going to be able to afford this? I know, lets start a financial appeal. People will feel sorry for us so lets get the money in while it lasts...
I mean, lets face it the Mccanns are pretty clever people. How machiavellian could they be? The only reason they have a powerful lobby ( unless all these govt connections/conspiracy theories are true) is because they have the financial means to employ high powered PR. And those financial means were provided by the public. At the end of the day, what else has the money been used for ? Only this, to prevent the Mccanns from being arrested.
Or am I going too far?
I think the magazines just make a calculated risk. If the McCanns are brought to trial I think there would still be some kind of voyeuristic attraction for some to look at their living room or at the star chart in the kitchen. So I don't think that their willingness to run articles on them says anything about their belief in the McCanns or otherwise. Its a cut throat business and is usually quite happy to turn against its 'subjects' without shedding a tear.
http://tinyurl.com/yvw3da
British diplomats recommended Murat as translator/interpreter
Staff from Bill Henderson's office suggested the name of Robert Murat as a reliable translator who could be used in the police inquiry, the days following Madeleine McCann disappearance. Murat was already known among diplomatic staff, as he had recommendation letters from Norfolk Police, where he worked for Bernard Matthews, one of the largest poultry farm companies in UK, which employs hundreds of Portuguese workers. The fact that Robert Murat has acted, before, as translator for Norfolk Police, and the recommendation issued by Bill Henderson's office, at the time the British consul in Algarve, took police to accept the suggestion, according to PJ sources. After Murat was named a formal suspect, Police went through all translations he has done, checking its accuracy, but no problem was found, according to the same sources. Bill Henderson retired from his diplomatic post and went back to UK in August.
Three year-old feared abducted in Portugal
By staff and agencies
Last Updated: 12:01am BST 04/05/2007
A three-year-old British girl has gone missing while on a family holiday in Portugal, the Foreign Office said today.
Portuguese police are investigating the disappearance from a holiday complex in Praia da Luz in the western Algarve.
A Foreign Office spokesman said that he understood the girl's parents had gone to have dinner once their children were asleep last night, but returned to check on them only to find the girl had gone missing.
advertisement"They reported it straight away," he said, adding that consular assistance was being offered.
Look at the time! 12.01 that's 2 hours after she's gone missing - the PJ didn't get there till around 11:00 did they? So the family must have gone to the media right away as has been suggested.
McCanns 'back in the frame' after new Maddie apartment evidence is sent to the UK
Portuguese police are sending new forensic material in the Madeleine McCann case to British scientists, it was revealed today.
The previously untested evidence is believed to come from the holiday apartment where she was last seen.
The move indicates that police in Portugal are maintaining their case that Madeleine died in the flat on the night of 3 May and that Kate and Gerry remain prime suspects.
It is believed that the latest tests are designed to bolster the original forensic results from the apartment, which are believed to have found traces of Madeleine's blood.
Experts from the Forensic Science laboratory in Birmingham will also conduct separate tests to establish where DNA already found in the McCanns' apartment came from.
To do this, further samples from the dozens of people who were in the apartment either before or after the girl disappeared are being sent to the laboratory.
The decision to submit the new forensic material was taken after a meeting in Leicestershire between Portuguese detectives and the British scientists.
Sources close to the investigation say that the aim is to "bring into sharper focus" the results previously sent to Portugal and to remove any possible alternative explanations for these findings.
Today's disclosures follow persistent claims, in the UK and Portugal, that the value of the forensic findings had been wrecked by the police failure to seal off the scene for weeks.
Sceptics have also claimed that the slow pace of the Portuguese investigation mean that the inquiry is running aground.
Sources in Britain dismiss such claims and say that although progress is methodical rather than spectacular, the new tests are intended to firm up the case being built by Portuguese detectives.
"New material is being sent and tests will be conducted to eliminate some people and to shine a brighter light on the results that have already been found," said one source close to the investigation."
"There is no dramatic change in the course of the inquiry and although progress might be slower than some people might expect, that does not mean that nothing is happening."
The new forensic tests come three months after a first batch of findings were sent to Portugal by experts from the Forensic Science Service.
The arrival of these initial results led to the McCanns being named as official suspects, although both continue to strongly deny any involvement in their daughter's disappearance.
No official confirmation of what these tests found has been provided, but leaks from Portugal suggest they include spots of Madeleine's blood in the Praia da Luz apartment and traces of her bodily fluids and hair in the couple's hire car.
Anything can and frequently does happen in this case.
- Are the McCanns punctually informed of the developments of the inquiry?
- They are informed of everything. Thus, we avoid the creation of false expectations in the case that the news are untrue. The private eye agency is in constant contact with the family although they only give information when it is consistent.
- Do the McCanns agree with the theory that Madeleine is alive and has been abducted by pedophiles?
- Yes, that is the theory in which they believe more strongly, especially because there is no corpse or any other evidence that indicates the contrary.
- Do you know the abductors who the detective, Francisco Marco, was talking about?
- Yes, they are perfectly informed of every step given by the detectives.
- At the end of six months, will the contract be renewed with the private eye agency, Método 3?
- They worked in this case during the last three months. When the contract will end, we will evaluate their results. If they are positive and if their work is so efficient as it has been until now, there is a lot a possibility that the contract would be renewed.
- How the McCanns would spend the first Christmas festivities without Madeleine?
- They don't talk about the subject, but I can assure you that despite the sadness caused by the absence of Madeleine, the twins will spend a happy Christmas. The most likely is that they will spend the festivities in their house at Rothley or they will visit a relative.
The key witness in the missing Madeleine McCann case was in hiding last night after fleeing Portugal.
Police have sworn the waiter to secrecy over his vital testimony and know where he is.
But friends say he is terrified his identity is about to be revealed and that he will come under pressure from rival factions in the case.
He is scared of British and Portuguese government influence in the probe. Friends claim he is also wary of the team of private eyes hired by Kate and Gerry McCann to help find their daughter.
But, according to former colleagues at the Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz, the knowledge he is playing such a vital role in the case that has gripped the world has horrified him.
One said: “He does not want to be involved in any of this. He was just a restaurant worker. His only problem was remembering food orders. He’s terrified.”
The waiter was the only resort worker to see Kate, 39, raise the alarm after apparently discovering her daughter missing just after 10pm on May 3. She insisted she ran into the tapas bar where her husband Gerry, 39, and their friends were eating and screamed: “Madeleine’s gone. Madeleine’s gone.”
But the waiter is understood to have told police Kate raised the alarm from the apartment balcony 75 yards away, screaming: “They’ve taken her. They’ve taken her.’’
Detectives want to know why she assumed so quickly her daughter had been abducted – and not simply wandered off to look for her parents.
Police value the waiter’s account because they cannot understand why – if Kate thought Madeleine had been snatched while unattended – she would then leave her twins Sean and Amelie in the apartment to run back to the tapas bar.
McCanns: Letters Rogatory
Inquiries only after Christmas
Kate and Gerry McCann and as well their seven friends who spent their holidays together in Portugal, will only be re-questioned after Christmas. This is because the British Foreign Office will execute the Letters Rogatory of the Judicial Police (PJ) only after this date, so that the McCann's family could spend the festive period as normal as possible.
Even the PJ has not the intention to interrogate the parents of Madeleine or any of their friends during the festivities. "It's not usual for the Judicial Police to perform interviews during Christmas, unless if it is an absolute necessity", said a source close to the investigation confronted with the intention of the Foreign Office.
The same source assured that the Letters Rogatory - where the PJ requests the re-interview of the group and containing the questions that they want to be performed - have not yet been dispatched by Eurojust and are still at the Public Prosecution, in Portugal. "The more likely is that it would be sent this week", continues the same source, "but nevertheless, it should not be possible to perform any proceeding in England before the days 24th or 25th of December", he added.
Remember that the letters are delivered by the Portuguese Public Prosecution to Eurojust, the EU body that is in charge of the co-operation between the judicial services of the different European states. Then, it will be by this channel that the documents would be delievered to the Foreign Office that then will give its agreement about the proceedings required by the PJ. If it is approved as it is expected, it would be necessary to send to England the team of the Judicial Police that would provide assistance during the interviews conducted by the British authorities.
Yesterday, the British press revealed that Sean and Amelie, the twin siblings, brothers of Madeleine, did ask to Santa Clausa to bring home Madeleine. In statements made in newspapers, Kate and Gerry McCann said that the request of the twins has "broken their hearts" and that "Madeleine's return would obviously be the ultimate present" that they wanted.
The British media has also reported that the McCanns bought gifts for Madeleine in the hope that she will appear by Christmas.
(...)
-Did the defense of the McCanns also emerge casually?
-There was a request for information from an international company of Lawyers who after having done their inquiries, did recommend my name.
-Your friendship with Pinto de Abreu did not have any influence?
-It did not have the slightest influence. The processes of choice have been completely different.
The journalists are witnesses that I am for the the discretion and I make an effort of not talking about my clients.
-This is a case with enormous interest...
-In accepting this defense, I knew that I will not pass unnoticed. I had to take this little small burden with me.
-Then why did you accept it?
-The fact of being difficult to be hidden has not been important. Because this is an attractive case from a professional point of view and it would be cowardice of not accepting it.
-The fact of being the president of the Portuguese Bar association and because it is a case that opposes two countries, don't you think you could be instrumentalized?
-No. I never was and I will never not allow it. What happened is that many people with the will to criticize me use this way to do so. But we cannot leave us to be manipulated by those who make noises in the media. Because these people don't represent anything. And I can not reject a case because there is half of dozen of people who are starting to make noise in two columns of opinion or by other means...
-Did you meet your clients personally?
-The relationship between a lawyer and its clients is secret. I, as other Lawyers, I have to talk with my clients. This case is too much discussed but it doesn't have anything exceptionally different from the others.
-Did you move to England?
-If we open holes with this kind of information, we are contradicting what we are saying. Our own status allows that a lawyer comments publicly when the nature of the news could justify an answer. There I understand your confusion. Because this should justify thousands of answers. But my decision is exactly the opposite.
-The McCann couple has not suffer from the principle of the presumption of innocence?
-What worries me is that the intervention of the media in the most mediatic cases can put in question this principle.
There has been a change in the public opinion when the parents of Maddie were made formal suspects...
I will not comment. Off course, the media has an enormous power to influence the thinking of citizens.
-According to the previous penal procedure, should Kate and Gerry McCann have been made formal suspects?
-May be. Nobody knows. There is now a greater scrutinity when the suspects are made. This is true.
-This case has an outcome in sight?
-This depends on the inquiry. This will have an outcome when the Public Prosecution will make a decision.
-How do you judge the actions of the PJ?
-I will not comment this matter.
-But this is not a usual case. It is normal that I ask you these questions...
-Don't take it wrong if I don't answer.
-How much will you win with this case?
-I will win according to the status on fees: according to the hours applied, the means of who pays and the result for the client.
-But all this is subjective...
-Yes it is. But until now nobody has raised questions like that.
(...)
Also, I don't think that he has met the McCanns.
He doesn't say that the McCanns are innocent because they are innocent as Clarence Mitchell. He says that everything depends on the inquiry of the PJ and in the decision of the Public Prosecution (The Ministerio Publico). He is very respectful of the Portuguese Institutions.
Personally, I regret that he became the lawyer of the McCanns because he was my favorite commentator of the case.
http://tinyurl.com/29j5qg
" it was rare for Madeleine to wake up at all once she was in bed. If she did, she’d normally wander into her parents’ bed, whether they were there or not. At home in Rothley, sometime earlier, they had begun a star chart for Madeleine staying in her own bed. The chart, still on display in the kitchen, was full of stars.
[Get that? Full of stars! So no need for sedatives - no sleep issues, it was fine leaving her, really! Full star chart - exhibit A for the defence]
But that's no defence - if they needed a star chart then it must have been an issue. In a strange place ... well it makes leaving her worse really.
Absolutely, in my personal experience of raising children & using Star Charts - they are behaviour modification devices placing a sreious family concern into a child friendly reward game - which you would never do if there was no issue in the first place.
I also noticed that cuddle cat was a gift from Jon Corner - her Godfather - there may have been more of a PR reason to keep cc close i.e. to keep Jon C intimately close to the family trauma. He would put this to good use later in the Panorama programme...
I've got loads of pictures with my children holding, cuddling, playing with their favourite toy (of the time) and there isn't one photo that I'm aware of of Madeleine with cc - which I'm sure if there was it would have been aired. CC amazingly vanished once serving whatever it's purpose was; and going right back to the beginning didn't M have a favourite cuddle blanket that she wouldn't go to sleep without that was mentioned in all early news reports? Sorry to be a cc bore but it's just one of those open threads in my mind.
I thought I was on my own in here, good to see you. Yeah I thought the thread was probably the more interesting one's on there at the moment and as you say a good OP by RRR.
The Daily Mirror reports that Mrs Webster, the mum of Fiona Payne, has told police <a href="
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2007/12... did not see Murat.
The letters would be sent
The Letters Rogatory - where the Judicial Police has requested new inquiries to the McCanns and their seven friends who dinned with them on the night of May 3,- will be sent to England in the beginning of this week, reveals the CM according to source closed to the investigation.
The letters will be sent though the Eurojust which co-ordinates the different department of Justice of the States of the European Union.
Yesterday, the 'Daily Express' said that CCTV footage have captured the presence of three men acting a suspiciously and nervously, smoking cigarettes and walking from side to side just a few meters for the apartment where the McCanns were spending their holidays. This happened the night when Madeleine vanished and in the day before.
The British newspaper also writes that the PJ - for having difficulties in seeing the faces that appeared in the images - will send the record to a laboratory of the FBI in the United States and adds that one of the men has strong resemblance with the abductor described by Jane Tanner.
However, this information has been dismissed to the CM by a source closed to the investigation that ensures that there is no image of this kind. "The CCTV camera closest to the apartment of the McCanns is the one of a supermarket and at this time it was out of order".
The same newspaper also reports that sniffer dogs were on the trail of Madeleine in a old barn at 45 kilometers from the village of Luz.
But these facts were also dismissed by the same source contacted by the CM that reveals that in the last days no new searches were made around Praia da Luz. Even when they were made, no information of this kind has resulted.
The McCanns are preparing Christmas
Kate and Gerry McCann are passing a phase "very complicated and sad" with the proximity of the Christmas festive period, the first to be celebrated by the family in the absence of Madeleine. "Christmas will be an incredibly difficult for us if Madeleine is not found before then. We plan to have a very quite, private Christmas with family in the UK", wrote Gerry in his blog that he has created to find his daughter. The cardiologist also writes that although they don't feel to celebrate Christmas they will do it with the twins. "We want Christmas to be as normal for Sean and Amelie as possible. They have already enjoyed decorating the Christmas three with their 'granny' and the great aunt", writes the father of Maddie. Gerry and Kate are still nourishing the hope of finding Madeleine alive and they expect to have her back by Christmas.
24 tourists are searched
The detectives of the Spanish agency, Método 3, hired by the McCanns, are trying to trace 24 British holidaymakers who spent their holidays in Praia da Luz in May. According the online edition of the 'Daily Star', they could hold "vital clues" for the inquiry. "We need them to come forward. They may have no information or they may have a tiny amount of information, which could prove vital in piecing together the jigsaw", said the detectives [in fact it is Clarence Mitchell who said it] to the British newspaper.
Which brings me to a point that has bothered me for awhile. Does anyone else have a problem sometimes in getting the different ages of Madeleine? I have a son, grown now, but I could recognize him as himself from year to year esply in early childhood. Sometimes Madeleine...she is ephemeral. The picture of her with the tennis balls held close looks so tall and much older to me than her pic by the pool with G and Amelie. Pics of her younger I would never believe to be her, they look more like the super round-faced child in Morocco in the sling on her mother's back. When I watch a YouTube with a roll of pics of Madeleine I really think I am looking at more than one child. Baffling.
But hasnt everything about this case been baffling?
*
http://tinyurl.com/yoo7ky
This is the proper link to the photo, look at the large picture of Gerry and the twins in the buggy on the right. Look through the cover, you can see two chidren, the child on the right looks way, way bigger than the child on the left yet it is supposed to be Amelie and Sean who we know are the same build and height! Creepy I know... could be a trick of the light, unusual seating position or could be Ella O'B; ... or ??
I am really looking forward to blimeys picture...one day he/she will show up again...maybe wearing something pink?
In reality to the question: Do you think that she will return with her parents before Christmas? ("¿Cree que volverá con sus padres antes de Navidad?")
He answered: who knows ("Ojalá").
The false news has been reported in UK, Portugal, Ireland, Germany, Australia, Argentina, Mexico, Urugay... and also in New-Zeland. And even in Spain in El Mundo quoting a British newspaper.
"They will even deny that which they see with their own eyes. They are victims of a psychological affliction known as 'the lemming effect.'
The Queen is considering talking about Maddie in her Christmas speech.
She is said to be deeply saddened at the tot's disappearance and thinks a mention of her would strike a chord with the nation.
Parents Kate and Gerry are "deeply touched" by Her Majesty's concern.
But the Queen will take advice about whether it is appropriate to refer to Maddie while the McCanns are still official "aguidos" - suspects.
A Royal source said: "The case of Madeleine has touched the hearts of people everywhere and the Queen is no different.
"There's not one parent or grandparent who isn't hoping for Madeleine's safe return. It helps the public to know their monarch has the same hopes, fears and wishes as they do.
"The Queen wants to give words of comfort to those affected but is still discussing whether it will be appropriate."
Maddie will have been missing for 236 days when the Queen broadcasts on Christmas Day.
A Palace spokesman said last night: "We cannot comment on the contents of the speech."
queen wont do herself any favours here if she mentions Madeleine!
By Liz Hunt
Of all the cruel and unusual headlines generated by the McCann case, it is simply the cruellest; Madeleine, we learned on Friday, could be "home for Christmas".
They were words of hope, untainted by the horror, grief and controversy occasioned by her disappearance. Contained in them was the promise that the four-year-old was just days away from being reunited, safe and well, with her parents. For the first time in seven months, I found my support for Kate and Gerry McCann wavering.
Journalistic hyperbole was not to blame for the happy-ever-after headline. The words accurately reflected claims made by the private investigator hired by the McCanns. The couple turned to Francisco Marco in September, after they became arguidos themselves and feared the Portuguese police were no longer pursuing anyone else in connection with their daughter's abduction.
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"I have always said publicly Madeleine is alive," Marco told a Spanish newspaper. "God willing, I hope she'll be back with her parents before Christmas." He knew who the kidnapper was, he added.
It wasn't Señor Marco's first offence. Last month, he assured us that he would find Madeleine "within five months". Next, he was telling CBS television in America that his agency, Metodo 3, was "100 per cent sure she is alive". Then he popped up on BBC1's Panorama, claiming that he knew who the kidnappers were and that "we are very, very close to catching them".
It is not the strategy one expects from a professional investigator, but discretion is not one of Señor Marco's attributes. The head of the "family-run" Spanish agency - a bizarre concept given the nature of their business - he relishes media attention. He courts the kind of sensational publicity guaranteed to have any kidnapper or paedophile heading for the hills.
Marco claims Metodo has returned 23 missing children to their families, though details of these successful cases have not been forthcoming - so far - despite requests from British journalists.
So why do the McCanns still believe Metodo 3 can deliver? The couple have suffered hellishly at the hands of a police force of such astounding incompetence that Clouseau would blush. Now, £50,000 a month from the Find Madeleine Fund is being paid to an agency which promises much and delivers little.
Following Señor Marco's latest claims, the McCanns issued a statement reiterating their confidence in Metodo's "operational capacity" to find Madeleine. At the same time, "sources" close to the family let it be known they were not entirely happy with the "level of certainty" Marco was expressing.
Kate and Gerry are intelligent people, doctors trained to deal in facts and probabilities, to face the reality of a diagnosis and deal with it. Their apparent refusal to accept, in the absence of a body, that their daughter is dead is, I suspect, for public consumption only.
In private, I'd be surprised if they persisted in denial. However, they also know that if they acknowledge the likelihood of her death publicly, then Madeleine's name will slip from the agenda, donations to the fund will stop, and all hope would truly wither.
Did the McCanns ever expect Metodo 3 to find her? I doubt it. But what the agency is doing, courtesy of its outrageous claims, is keeping her in the news. Was it only coincidence that Señor Marco's remarks emerged two days after claims that police in Praia da Luz were to abandon the case, and that the seaside town that has been at the eye of the storm since May 3 was ready to move on, too?
Faded posters and photographs of Madeleine are disappearing from around the resort, as are the symbols of hope we became familiar with during the long, painful summer - the candles and the now bedraggled green and yellow ribbons.
I don't blame the McCanns for their desperate attempts to keep Madeleine in our minds. But the latest twist in the saga is unsettling. The Find Madeleine Fund was set up to do what it says, to discover what happened to her and bring her abductor to justice. Any surplus is to be used to help the families of other missing children. Instead, it appears to be funding publicity stunts.
"Home for Christmas" is such an evocative phrase, expressing a sentiment that most of us subscribe to. In Basra last week, the Prime Minister sympathised with those troops who would "not be home for Christmas". We all do.
Linking Madeleine to this cosy celebration of family life highlights the fresh agony Kate and Gerry face over the next two weeks. Last year, their beautiful little girl was there to help decorate the tree with her brother and sister. This year, short of a Christmas miracle - which is what every sane person prays for - she won't be and it was wrong to suggest otherwise. The McCanns should think again about Señor Marco.
"So why do the McCanns still believe Metodo 3 can deliver? The couple have suffered hellishly at the hands of a police force of such astounding incompetence that Clouseau would blush. Now, £50,000 a month from the Find Madeleine Fund is being paid to an agency which promises much and delivers little."
They can hire and fire the M3 at will - even in this they want people to think they are victims!
"The McCanns are still confident Metodo 3 are doing a good job and have no plans to sack them before their contract runs out."
http://tinyurl.com/39soxd
Am I getting super cynical or could it be that they deliberately hired the worst agency knowing the would fail very obviously then they would have someone (apart from the PJ) to blame for everything.
A close friend of the family said: "It's not helpful and we have told them that. They have been told not to do any more interviews."
Well, finally it seems that Team McCann realized their propaganda is counter productive.
The information has been reported yesterday in the British press. And this morning the same information is reported in Portugal in the Correio da Manhã and in the 24Horas.
The Correio da Manhã reports that Francisco Marco knows who took Madeleine and he knows that she is somewhere in the north of Africa or in the Iberian peninsula. The 24Horas reports that Método 3 is not sure that Madeleine leaved Portugal but nevertheless she could be far away from the Iberian peninsula or from the north of Africa. However, the 24Horas is confident that Método 3 will probably grant the reward of £ 1.5 million if they find Madeleine as promised.
Another information, reported from a newspaper to another, from a country to another, without taking the necessary time to verify the information itself.
The exact content of the conversation has not been revealed but a source close to the Portuguese Prime Minister has taken the initiative to discuss the subject. "Officially, this conversation would probably be dismissed but the fact is there: It's really Gordon Brown who took the initative to discuss the subject", confirms the same source even adding: "When will they understand that it's a matter that concerns the police and the Justice. The Politics has nothing to do with it".
Damaged vehicle subjected to expertise in Portimão
PJ paid repair of the car of Murat's mother
The van of the mother of Rober Murat, Jennifer, has been repaired at the expense of the Judicial Police (PJ). This vehicle has been damaged during the expertise, that happened at the beginning of August, in an underground park near the Criminal Investigation Department of the PJ of Portimão.
The van, a green Volkswagen Transporter, was one of the 12 cars involved in the procedures promoted by the PJ on August 6. It was given back with a paint scratch. On Thursday of last week, Rober Murat returned the car to the PJ and he took it back, repaired, last Monday.
The repair should have cost 400 euros. "The situation has been resolved and the PJ has acted with total honesty", has commented Francisco Pagarete, lawyer of Murat, formal suspect in the inquiry of the disappearance of Madeleine.
Meanwhile, Jennifer Murat accuses the McCanns of marking her family's lives a misery because of the suspicions that the friends of Kate and Gerry raised about his son. The British woman of 71 years even says to she wishes that "the McCanns had never gone on holiday to Praia da Luz".
This happens just before the dectective of the private eye agency, Metodo 3, Francisco Marco reports to the British press that he knows who took Madeleine and she would be rescued from her kidnappers in North Africa or the Iberian Peninsula. She'll be back with her parents before Christmas, he said.
Also the mayor of Luz, Manuel Borba, accuses the McCanns of "extreme negligence" for having left their three children alone at night.
A source close to the Find Madeleine Fund said they “desperately hope the reports are true” but doubt Mr Marco will deliver on his Christmas pledge.
She said: “It would be fair to say that among some people involved in the search for Madeleine there is a growing concern about certain remarks made by the private detectives.
“It also is fair to say they don’t appear to be the most private of private eyes.”
It is claimed that a second man was paid to abduct Madeleine from her bed and to transport her to a gang. Mr Marco said: “In principle, we’re talking about paedophiles. It’s not a kidnap carried out for economic reasons.”
http://tinyurl.com/2ldajc
Which I hope everyone will read.
As regards the Shannon Matthews case I felt strongly from the outset that something wasn't right at all with the facts as they were presented - a similar but different feeling I also have with the McCann case, of course all this is still merely speculation in this real life, highly emotive, mystery.
TRUTH ABOUT THE McCANNS: BY TOP UK CRIME CRACKER
By Daniel Jones
Maddie's little brother and sister are learning to cope with their devastating loss by playing a game called Find The Monster Who Snatched Her.
And three-year-old twins Sean and Amelie are also playing a vital role in keeping their mum and dad focused, according to top criminologist Ray Wyre.
He told The People last night: "I think having other very young children has given Kate and Gerry the strength to go on.
"It must be hard for them because the twins are now almost the same age as Maddie was when she was taken.
"But they are clearly a bundle of energy and fun.
"They still talk about Madeleine and even bring her into their games."
Wyre went on: "Kate and Gerry told me they were sitting together the other day when the twins rushed into the room screaming and shouting.
"They asked what they were up to and the twins told them they were going to go and find the monster that took Maddie.
"Then they dashed off to play the game."
He added: "Of course, it's a very sad story.
"But it's healthy that Madeleine remains a real presence in their lives."
I think children even at that age are entitled to the truth - as far as they can assimilate it. But there are many things in the adult world from which they have to be sheltered because they are not old enough to understand.
Anyway its another crass thing to add to the catalogue for the McCanns in my view. They are undoubtedly perplexingly odd people - or at least that's how they come across.
The newspaper 24 Horas stated that the fund is paying 75k Euros per month to Brain Kennedy for him to pay Metodo 3, this is 50k+ GBP or maybe 100k dollars ... for what? Richard Branson is paying towards the McCanns legal defence and Brian Kennedy is giving his solicitor Smethhurst 'free'. Obviously the fund is not being used for the the McCanns legal defence in any way, shape or form. So why is the money donated by well meaning people from around the world who want to help find Madeleine being cycled around in this strange way? Why is it paying such large amounts to what seems a highly ineffective detective agency? Who chose them and why? Even Clarence Mitchell doesn't seem very impressed.
But it's also difficult to believe that the McCanns and the direction of the fund were not associated with this decision to hire these Spanish detectives.
Clarence Mitchell, the public relation spokesman of the McCanns, is still using the services of the British government despite having officially resigned from his post as director of the Media Monitoring Unit next to Gordon Brown. The accusation was made by a source from the Home Office who ensures that the resigned director has appealed to the former services to monitor several journalists, but also the behavior of Internet users on a list of forums and blogs considered to be "highly damaging" for the image of the McCanns and the British government.
Clarence Mitchell, a former journalist for the Daily Express and the BBC, was appointed by the Foreign Office as a liaison officer between the media and the parents of Madeleine. It was him who had arranged, through the respective British embassies, the visits of the McCanns to the Vatican, Madrid, Berlin, Amsterdam and Rabat.
The monitoring and the control of the media have become, since the first days, an important issue of the job of Clarence Mitchell. During the stay of McCann in Praia da Luz, it was him who decided to separate journalists on the basis of their nationality: first the British and then the Portuguese.
Today, the public relations campaign of the McCanns passes, more than ever, through the control of public opinion; in the last few days several forums and blogs were closed overseas because of comments "against the McCanns" . This happen to the Mirror forum that without any warning has erased all the comments concerning the case after some Internet users began to discuss the interference of the Home Office.
The Internet users, mostly British, have not given up and the exchange of comments are now done in an open forum called The Three Arguidos (The Three Suspects).
(...)
A spokesman for the couple confirmed they were in talks with US networks, but denied that any money had been offered.
"We have been approached by representatives for both Oprah and Barbara. They want an exclusive interview with Kate and Gerry," the spokesman told the paper.
"We are discussing it but it doesn't mean we are definitely doing it. Nothing has been agreed.
"There is categorically no truth to the suggestion that any sort of bidding war is currently taking place between American networks or American programs."
The couple would not be doing any sit-down media interviews while they remained suspects in the case, the spokesman said.
The Mail also reports that the McCanns are considering giving the go-ahead to a film version of Madeleine's alleged abduction.
Three-year-old Madeleine McCann went missing from a Portuguese resort while the family was holidaying over seven months ago, sparking a massive worldwide manhunt.
Authorities have recently released a sketch of a long-haired man who may be connected with her disappearance.
POLICE have accused Madeleine McCann’s parents of putting out a sketch of her possible kidnapper in a bid to ease the heat on them.
Detectives have refused to back the couple�s decision to launch a worldwide hunt for the oddball seen prowling round Praia da Luz a week before Madeleine vanished.
They insist they investigated the sighting of the man soon after Madeleine disappeared and ruled him out.
According to Portuguese newspapers, police sources said the man was one of many drifters who tour the Algarve begging for money to finance drug habits.
They remain convinced Madeleine was accidentally killed in her family�s holiday apartment and that her parents disposed of her body.
Darn forgot my next point!"
What is clear to me is that there is no evidence to sustain this theory. Do we know who he is? No. Do we know where he is? No. Do we know if he was at Praia da Luz, May 3? No. Do we know if he is a pedophile? No.
Jane Tanner said she was unable to see the face of the man she saw the night of May 3. Now she recognized a man described by Mrs Copper as being the man she has seen, the night of May 3.
What I conclude is that Jane Tanner lost her credibility. Her testimony has now no value. That's probably the unexpected consequence of the release of this new sketch.
If anyone would like me to post it here for you to read - I will.
If you want I'll post the letter on here tomorrow, must go to bed very soon, thanks for your interest :)
They will return after the "D-Day" of April 11 - when they supposed that the three-month extension of the secrecy of justice is up, said a friend of the McCanns and he added "they believe investigators do not have the evidence against them to bring charges, and their presence in Portugal would embarrass them."
What the Portuguese press did report is that the Portuguese Police has enough evidence to charge them right now but the British police said that they will get a better result if they perform the interviews of the McCanns and their friends in UK. This is something that the McCanns and all their friends are not willing to accept.
The Portuguese lawyers of the McCanns will not have access until the end of the inquiry and the McCanns, Clarence Mitchell and their friends know this fact perfectly.
But Clarence Mitchell said: "To our knowledge they have no forensic evidence against Kate and Gerry."
This is another desperate attempt to discredit the Police, perhaps the most cynical and hypocritical statements that Clarence Mitchell made to suggest that the Police has no evidence against the McCanns. Off course he has is no knowledge of the evidence. For the good reason that the inquiry is still under secret.
And everybody knows that the Portuguese Police will not interview anybody in Uk, it's the British Police who will perform the interviews according to the requests stated in the letters of appeal if the British Authorities give their agreement.
Jon Corner knows the truth about what happen to Madeleine: "Madeleine was snatched by a calculated group of criminals, we are sure of that", he said but he did not present any evidence to sustain this theory.
Besides he is also fearing that "the vital clue that would lead them to Madeleine is sat on a desk in a police station in Portugal gathering dust".
He said that the McCanns are frustrated by the failure of the Portuguese police to follow-up potential leads, but not a word about the failure of their private eyes, Metodo 3, who said that they knew that Madeleine was alive and they knew where she was.
I am more and more frustrated by their attitudes. I will not say that they are cynical cowards for not going to Portugal at once or innocent hypocrites for not helping the Police. I will not say that they are parasitical suspects as a senior officer of the PJ suggested they were. I will just say that this is not a poker game between the PJ and the McCanns. There will be no winners. What is under consideration here is truly the truth about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
http://tinyurl.com/27nfe6
Of those 124 approximately 103 are anti-McCann 18 pro and 3 neutral. Nothing new there! However it is the language employed by the pro lobby that is fascinating. None of them let the facts get in the way of a good argument. They do not focus on the MCanns and in fact few mention Madeleine. They all vent hatred, and I have chosen that word carefully, at those who dare to criticise team McCann. The most oft used words are, nasty, disgusting, cruel, negative, tragic and suffering. I think all 18 letters contain at least one of these key words and some contain all. Is this the McSpinn? Are these people being paid for writing and if so by whom? The fund? If so no wonder it is running out. This amount of spleen and bile do not come cheap. You would think though that they could at the very least vary the point of attack and supply each with a pocket dictionary and thesaurus. We used to joke when I was young about letters sent to the Times signed, Indignant, Tunbridge Wells. I think indignant is alive and well and is now based in Rothley.
'In the fall, for instance, it emerged that the McCanns had made two mortgage payments from the $2.4 million fund set up to find Madeleine.'
I have been on official sites a few times and I have never seen this amount in the fund update box. I did notice that after they were made 'arguidos' that the amount never changed but that at the same time Team McCann did say that 'money was still being donated' - so is this what it went up to? Note that this is not the 'reward money' that is pledged by celebrities and doesn't exist in any bank account as far as I'm aware, also this is not the money from Brian Kennedy as well... or is it??? There seems to be a lot of grey areas about this fund, specifically about how much is in it and what has it been spent on??
WB... By the way if you want to reply to anyone specifically, and I know you usually do, then you have to click on the reply under the post you''e replying to. That way when you choose threaded right at the beginning - posts will appear by replies in chronological order.
Happy commenting :)
There is here a good site for you to look at.
It is what we in the footballing parlance call 'putting yourself in the shop window'. This is when a player is discontented with his club and plays a "blinder" to get himself noticed by other teams. This also suits his present manager who will get rid off him for an increased transfer fee. John, Bergatov (sorry probably wrong spelling) comes to mind.
So is this orgy of self congratulations and back-slapping mean Clarence is preparing to move on? I have to admit, looking at his career objectively, if the McCanns were now charged his c.v. would be enhanced. The wisdom would be if he could hold Team McCann together and spin for them during all their problems he could probably get the Church Times to give Old Nick a fair shake. Or am I being totally cynical?
Is it just me or do the McCanns not do the right thing!!!!!!!! I mean, sorry to say it again but they do!!!
Typical example, they have a MEETING with a FILM company to discuss making some sort of film, WHY WHY WHY!!! He stated (CM that is) that they are going to do something, a movie etc WHYYYYYYYYYYY I mean my God if it were me I would be saying F*** off you what the hell do you think we are etc etc. I just think they should be angry about people even considering it, rather than litening to it!!!
Interesting though that CM went on Talk Sport, I am thinking he is trying to get down with the people!!! I think he is looking for his get-out, he was also on Richard and Judy yesterday, he is going on "people" shows because i firmly believe he is starting his get out campaign and become the "victim" in this situation.
I also think that he hasnt left his Government post I think within the next few months he shall be getting back to his old job, at the end of the day think about it who in their right mind would leave their government job to front Team McCann. I also think the government chose him as they thought this would be an ideal opportunity for votes and finally I also believe CM and John (the interviewer are v good friends) They apparently used to work together!!!
ADOLPH HITLER
My part in his downfall
By Spike Milligan
The title kind of grabs you.
Madeleine McCann
My part in the cover-up
by Clarence Mitchell
It kind of gives the show away don't it.
Madeleine McCann: The Perfect PR Campaign
by Clarence Mitchell
With a preface of John Mair, the organiser of the Conversations who said:
“Clarence did a splendid job of getting the 'Missing Madeleine 'message to millions. How did he and they do it? I am sure it will be a fascinating talk and extremely topical.”
Clarence Mitchell
"Used and abused, the innocence of a saviour"
He will of course write his own title. Or perhaps more crudly it shall be CM - So far up my own arse I can tickle my own tonsils!!!
This was not a posting on an obscure website inhabited by Troll Team McCann, this was written by a "respected" columnist in one of our largest selling and informed newspapers. Similar to the piece written by Simon Heffer in the Telegraph in so much as when the word Madeleine is written all objectivity seems to fly out the window. Why? I have asked Ms Pearson to report M's demise to the police as obviously she is privy to information that others do not have. How can the editor of the paper have allowed this drivel to be published? I thought the same with the editor of the Telegraph. It would appear that when it comes to reporting the McCanns the crossbar is lowered to the extent that not only is racism ok but also statements that have no similarity to actuality. John I am beginning to believe as you do in government involvement and that I find really scary.
Well done for responding to La Pearson - I tried to this morning but kept getting bounced out.
I'm finding this format just so difficult to follow. Good to be back though and I enjoy reading all your posts.
I won't be putting any money in an envelope and sending it the the stricken couple. Somehow, after Clarence's remarks I doubt the letters would ever reach their intended destination.
So choose flat and refer your comment back to the relevant post if that feels easier - that's generally what I do. if i think I don't know what the post is referring to I'll go back to threaded to check then resume on flat for recent posts.
Hope this makes sense??
Liz x
Portuguese Police consider that they have enough evidence to charge the McCann and some of their friends, without the need of a new round of inquiries to the Tapas Group. However, it was suggested that the process of sending rogatory letters could achieve a better result, with the cooperation of British authorities, after the McCann and some of their friends rejected a suggestion from Polícia Judiciária to go back to Portugal and submit to another questioning.
The suggestion was transmitted through Leicester Police but the McCann legal team put as a condition to accept it that the status of formal suspect of Gerry and Kate should be lifted, first. Portuguese police justified the suggestion as a faster way of going forward with the investigation, avoiding a complex and bureaucratic process for a new questioning to take place in UK, with rogatory letters to the Home Office.
But informal messages sent from the British Government to Lisbon stated clearly that the best way to get a full cooperation from British Police, while charging the McCann, would be to follow a more time-consuming process, in order to guarantee that it would take, at least three months to achieve it, as Gordon Brown fight for political survival can have him facing elections early than expected.
When I read the first sentences I thought that Gerry was saying that Clarence Mitchell was a liar.
http://tinyurl.com/2vdw8d
if you want to tell them apart ; clue, one of them is sweaty, squinty, shifty, dodgy, sad and lonely with something to hide. Not sure which one though!
I too wrote and complained re: Don't holiday in Portugal I made reference to the Brazilians saying don't go to Britain after that tragic shooting, police weren't exactly competent there now were they? The report clearly pointed blame BUT I did state the PJ like our police are only human and sadly errors occur.
None of them are Robocop!!
Not my type though - either of them ;)
I do think on a few pics it looks like Madeleine has been added, there was one I saw of Gerry and one of the twins at the pool and Madeleine was there but the shadows etc looked like she was just simply plonked there, again I shall say, with this case, who knows, I think even Sherlock Holmes would have his work cut out in this case.
Concerning the fact that the process could be public at the end of the secrecy deadline, January 14, he explained its legal meaning:
"That is, [the process] could be consulted by the formal suspects, by the complainant, by the assistants but by who is implied in the process. It does not mean that it is open to the public. It is open to the intervenants namely the formal suspects".
The Public Prosecution has presented the request to declare the process as being of an exceptional complexity. So it would remain secret until April 14 if it is accepted by the judge.
Rogério Alves said "the Public Prosecution should explain that it will not be premature and could put into question the inquiries or a segment of the inquiries could be endangered by the fact that the process is now open to consultation namely for the formal suspects".
As to the fact that the secrecy deadline could be renewed for another three months if the crime is qualified as a crime of terrorism or high criminality, he said :
"In my opinion it does not apply to this case".
* Lynn because Maddy was supposedly not on CCTV footage going or from the cretche, then it doesn't matter what the nannies say or if she was signed in.
* The body wasn't moved by the scenic 25 days later. But contamination occurred due to sports bag, that was disposed of later. To me that is a no brainer, except "when" was the bag found?
* G could have moved the body when he was supposed to be playing tennis, but instead was miles away. So there must have been a car. Will the person deny giving G the keys? I doubt there was a a need to move the body at all from the final resting point, so if true to need to embalm, etc.
* Twins were probably sedated on May 3rd.
This is where it gets tricky, the theory on how did she die?
* Possible it wasn't Maddy crying for 2 hours, could have been one of the twins & Maddy could have been dead when they returned?
* Possible if they were summonsed back from the restaurant they were embarrassed and angry. Perhaps gave Maddy a sedative then, accidental overdose due to intoxication and anger?
* Possible accident she was hurt and they knew they was nothing they could do, or tried to treat her themselves?
* Possibly she was hit by K&G when they arrived back in a rage?
We have heard a shower curtain has been found, a bloody towel and (I forget that one John) a syringe.
What I don't see the need for; is them all having to be involved, except perhaps on the regular checks & JT (I believe is in the know). ROB probably didn't move the body as G probably had done that at 4:00, but he probably knows too. If there is no big secret that they all have to keep except for the regular checks, I feel one or more will fess up to "no checks" and be asking for a deal. CCTV's don't lie and no amount of getting stories straight will help that situation.
What are your theories?
I don't think Kate hit Madeleine because then the guilt would be so extreme - I think she fell over when unsupervised or something - i.e. a genuine accident.
A source from the Public Prosecutor's Office confirmed today that a request to extend the time limit for the case will be filed, before January 14, eight months after the first formal suspect was named. According to the Code of Criminal Procedure, after eight months the Public Prosecutor's Magistrate in charge of the case must bring charges, dismiss the case or request an extension to complete the investigation.
http://tinyurl.com/2yyw5k
A very interesting theory, I expect the second part of it to come out very soon due to the fact that a certain poster was chasing round at least three forums over Christmas (wasn't around much but spotted him in various guises with similar requests) looking for certain video or photographic evidence. No-one could help and that seemed in itself an answer for them!
(I backtracked on a couple of their earlier posts to see where they might be heading with this and found they'd also been researching preservation etc. So everything comes around?)
It's also a very plausible story if one can belieive the motive! the missing part (what I referred to as the second part earlier) is how on earth did they keep & dispose of the body, that I think is what is coming next.
But of course most of us will want to see what the PJ will do next, if these sources of said poster are to be beleived they must be close to the investigation?
Clues to a persons identity are around same mistake's (like this one lol), likes and dislikes, OR THIS, overuse of emoticons, por spilling, not using 'quote' , never remembering what they've said - What was that??, Only posting on threads, brown nosing 'friends' etc. We leave clues all the time, I actually worry sometimes that I'm all too honest and just me - all the time!
sorry I am referring to the post where John states Lizbee - you say "him in various guises with similar requests" - I am fascinated by your web-detection, how did you know it was the same person? Is there a secret.
"CCTV footage from MW's reception proves that the TAPAS 9 were, for the most part, lying about the frequency of their checks. This is considered an attempt by ALL TAPAS 9 to stall any charges of negligence. The investigation team are also aware of the attempt within the May 3rd confusion to blur the actual time and circumstances of Maddy's disappearance. " From M Forum.
Is it true re:CCTV?? for if so surely they would get them back over to clarify things. In saying that, if they were tipsy, and I am judging them on my own standards here, I have no idea where I am sometimes let alone the time and if I were to guess I'd probably be way off,
I think Jose that perhaps this is just lies, spin, who knows, could be the McCanns spinning as they have alibi for May 2nd, only God knows.
Inquiry: Public Prosecution did not request the continuation of secrecy
PJ maintains the homicide crime
Tomorrow, the Judicial Police will deliver an interim report to the process of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann where the crime is still qualified as a homicide crime. The detectives maintain that the minor child was accidentally killed by the parents who later disposed of the body. Gerry and Kate could still be accused of a false-crime report in asking for the help of the police to find the child.
In parallel and because that was the theory when Robert Murat was made a formal suspect, the process maintains the theory of abduction. A theory that was 'consummated' during the conduct of the inquiry, when the elements of PJ found evidence that points to the homicide crime. Because the British resident of Praia da Luz is still a suspect, the qualification of the crime as an abduction continues in force.
Tomorrow, the detectives will also deliver the Rogatory Letters to the Court of Portimão that should be dispatched to England by the week. There, it will be notified the questions that will be made to the friends who spent their holidays together in the Algarve with the McCanns and only after the PJ will consider to re-intervew the parents of the child.
However, the inquiry will not qualify the process as completed, reports the CM. "We can not do it before the fulfillment of the Rogatory Letters" said a source of the process.
This procedure don't imply automatically the maintaining of the justice secrecy. Indeed yesterday, the prosecutor did not request the extension of the secret and he could still do so tomorrow, the first day after the judicial holidays when the non-urgent processes (such as the case of the disappearance of Maddie) are returning to the tribunal.
In the first request to maintain the secrecy of the proceedings, the judge qualified it as a highly mediatic case without having at that moment registered the special complexity of the process. This could still be done tomorrow.
Therefore rather than conclude the McCanns are guilty, like many people in the UK and world I guess I thought it more realistic to think that the PJ made an error. I hope that this case is resolved and I hope that my writings help some of you realise why probably most people still believe in the McCanns. I for one still believe that they are innocent but now for the simple fact that there is not 100% evidence, yet, to conclude that they are guilty. More and more I do feel that this evidence will eventually arrive.
With regards to the showercurtain etc, any news on what happened to that yet?
Maybe the fear of being branded bad parents and so on, the impact on their careers etc. has made them panic, and it is indeed possible that they have and are suffering from a huge injustice. However I just think they have only themselves to blame. I think it is their duty to co-operate with the PJ.
I think we all also accept that the PJ ay have made some errors in the investigation. But I doubt that there is any investigation in the world which could not be criticised in some way. I think that Amaral had decided that they were guilty and tried to apply pressure for a confession. But again he wouldn't be the first policeman in the world to try for this kind of approach. If they made mistakes it was not fully investigating the parents from the outset but even here there was huge pressure to go along with the pedophile/abductor line - and while it seems that there is little hard evidence for this its hard to prove that it is impossible.
Without the body the evidence is probably always going to be 'indicative' rather than 'conclusive'. And there are a number of loose ends:
- shower curtain
- bag found near airport
- towel with fibres
- syringe in bedroom
- blue bag
???
Francisco Pagarete told The Sun: “After eight months that is the end of the inquiry.
“He must be either accused or advised of the suspicions against him.
“If they postpone the deadline they will have to tell us why.
“The public prosecutor either accuses him or doesn’t. And that is what I am hoping will happen.
“We have not had any communications from the police since August. Obviously they have already cleared Robert, it is just a question of the deadline.”
Mr Mitchell said who has great sense of humor: "Kate, Gerry and their friends remain ready and willing to talk to the police".
Why the McCanns don't return to Portugal at once if now they are willing to talk?
"In the meantime our lawyers will continue to press for access to the police files, and to push for the arguido status to be lifted".
How could the Portuguese lawyers pressing to access to the police files if they were not notified of the end of the deadline and its postponing? And why did Rogério Alves said that their status will not be lifted until the end of the inquiry in a Spanish interview?
"They feel it is a huge distraction. While police are looking at them they are not searching for Madeleine".
How do the McCanns know that the Police is not searching for Madeleine if they say that all the lines of inquiry are open?
"As we go into 2008, they will be regrouping, with renewed energies, and focusing on the campaign."
Glad to hear that, when will they return to Portugal to re-focus their campaign?
"The public prosecutor either accuses him or they don't. And that is what I am hoping will happen."
He went on: "We have not had any communication from the police since August.
"Obviously they have already cleared Robert, it is just a question of the deadline."
Madeleine's parents Kate and Gerry, who are the only other arguidos, should theoretically also be charged, released or told what evidence exists against them tomorrow. But it is believed the prosecutor has already granted an extension allowing a further period of secrecy for the investigation because of the "special complexity" of the case, reports the Daily Mail.
This is extremely odd and I'm copying it here before it vanishes into a black hole. No comment on its truth or otherwise, except that it could be a colossal windup.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Author Message
MartinBrunt
Joined: 01 Jan 2008
Posts: 1
New postPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:07 am Post subject: Thank You Report this post Reply with quote
Dear everyone,
thank you for your contributions to this forum which are, in a way, the best type of investigative journalism one can hope for in this case.
I cannot speak freely here, so I will try to hint at what I mean by being perfectly open about the dark forces acting against me and many other reputable journalists as this tragic tale has progressed.
Before going any further, I would like to thank two forum members who've gotten closer to the truth than any journalist on the ground.
Lucian Deville and TheAuthor, you have my thanks, and please, take a bow. Without your work and incredible insight, many of us would still be in thrall to the daily briefings of Mr Mitchell.
However, I have news for you.
After the Christmas Day end of year report, I found myself under huge pressure, and, as a result, I have resigned from Sky News.
You will read about this in tomorrow's papers.
It seems the truth is anathema to those in power in this country and, consequently, those who control the various media.
I have the truth about this sad case, I know what happened on that tragic night.
There are ten other journalists who share this information, and it is indeed extremely disturbing information.
There is a futher tragic twist to what I have to tell you.
One of my colleagues, from my days in Midlands news reporting,who threatened to blow the lid on this, is dead tonight.
I now fear for my very life.
Please, please take to the streets on my behalf and on the behalf of all those who want the truth out in this case but are liviing under fear of death.
I shall return to this board in the near future to report more developments.
But as proof of my bona fides, there will be an announcement on Sky News at 3.30am claiming I have left the corporation by mutual consent.
That is a lie.
I will contribute to this forum occasionally over the coming weeks, but I implore all of you to mobilise, get out and away from your computers, and please lobby for the truth to be known.
Finally, I intend to reveal that Clarence Mitchell has one of his senior advisors contributing to this site.
I cannot reveal his name, but I can confirm he posts under the name gooner_no1, and he has been collecting data from all those who respond to his posts.
Please keep me informed if he posts again, I have a surprise in store for him.
Yours,
MB
It appears to have been a wind up according to Spudgun, but who the hell knows with this case?
http://tinyurl.com/2xnu6w
No idea whether it's true...
going back to find out!!!!
It was supposedly a letter from Martin Brunt Sky News announcing his resignation due to having discovered some unsavoury truths in the case, most people think it was a hoax but it was removed mighty quick is all i can say... and it is a slow day on the net?
WB Stanley glad you found us...
Re: PJ Yes I admit i was critical of them for not initially sealing the crime scene etc. But I feel I know much more now about the way they work and feel more sure about the professionalism of their investigation than I did back then and I don't know what more they could have done in this very challenging case.
If none of the Tapas7 saw Madeleine on the 2nd I think one of them would have said so, I cannot believe they are all secretly involved in some child murder, I just really cannot comprehend that at all. No-one is that good a friend!!!!!!!!
Also I think RM was around and about after Madeleine went missing, well that is the impression I got, I think it was before she went missing he is disputing but I think he openly stated afterwards when he heard he went out to help looking that night - I could be wrong!!!!!!!!
With regards to the bag, again I believe this is significant but I find it hard to believe anything at the moment as it is the same with this case, lack of submission of evidence leads one to think once something is mentioned it is either spin or the PJ grasping at straws. As John stated there is so much untruth with news etc now I find myself thinking is any of this true, having worked in the media I know how much exaggeration and spin is put on things but now it is more of a case of is anything really true. As the news isnt copyrighted it tends to be a case of make it up and say it came from a "source".
WOOO HOOO Glad you are back Stanley, just hope some others find us, em but not all, naming no names lol
All the best to all of you for 2008, I wish you whatever your heart desires.
One last note, does anyone else see the similiarity between Payne and RM???
Lets hope for good news in 2008, or at least some real news!!!
Wishing you all a happy and safe 2008.
I desperately hope for good news in the new year, hugs to Madeleine.
Also just noticed that there is a very similar resemblance between DOP and Murat, perhaps it was Mr Payne they saw not Murat.
It's red top tabloid stuff, no-one with any brains takes any notice and given what we all know for certain about the media we should take it with the contempt it deserves. John's right you know the UK public don't all think and agree with this garbage.
I was a bit ashamed actually when I saw it in the list :(
It certainly is a whole new world when suspects in a missing child case presume to dictate through their 'ex' FO media spokesperson that they will only return to answer questions if their suspect status is removed - What the ****? How dare they?
I'm actually getting quite angry about this now - very unusual for me. I don't feel any empathy at all any more for them I'd just like the LARGEST BOOK ever to be thrown with full force straight at 'em and their souls can go to hell. They have shown the world what they are about and what we know so far isn't nice in the slightest, beggers belief what will come out next.
I think that at this moment, the McCanns are just hoping that they will never be interviewed in UK or in Portugal. They refused to speak to the Portuguese police in Portugal. They have the right to remain silent. I don't blame them for that and nobody should. But I just don't like to read Clarence Mitchell suggesting that they are going to "correct misconceptions". Indeed, they will probably speak to the Leicestershire Police but with the questions of the Portuguese Judicial Police. If they refused to speak in September, why would they change their mind?
Also, I don't think that the Portuguese Police will ask to the British Police to re-interview the McCanns without new strong evidence. And if they have this strong evidence, they will probably send an invitation to the McCanns to come to Portugal through a warrant of arrest.
http://tinyurl.com/yun7jd
This case has undermined so much. Even when I watch the news about Mrs. Bhutto I ask myself "are those people really in Rawlpindi?", was she shot anyway? are the reporters actually investigating what is going on? Do I believe what I am being told? The philosopher Descartes talked of something called 'universal doubt' and that is the legacy of Madeleine for me at the moment. Thank god and Steve for the internet and this site so that we can at least find somewhere to discuss all this!?!
I posted this on the M forum a few hours ago in response to a very pro McCann supporter's view that there was no evidence of wrong doing on their part and almost certain evidence of an abductor:
A few questions for you:
Why was there no evidence of 'jemmied windows', an abductor or disturbance of any nature?
Why do you think Gerry changed his mind and his account of his last check on the apartment re: what he said he did (a cursory check in early accounts then looking over Maddie etc.) and especially as regards an abductor being present - a detail added much, much later?
Why did Jane Tanner's witness account about the abductor and her own movements that night change so much?
Why did Kate give some rather strange accounts for why the cadaver dog went mental on sniffing her jeans, cuddle cat and her bible?
Why was Gerry so very angry that the DNA dog was allowed near the Renault civic?
Why did Gerry contact the FO before he called his own family on May 3rd?
Why did all the early stories talk about Maddie's cuddle blanket that she wouldn't go to sleep without, then this was dropped in favour of the more photogenic cuddle cat and why did Kate wash this item of evidence that presumably still smelt of Maddie?
I could go on....[/quote]
And I genuinely could go on and on, I obviously don't know what actually happened but I am damned certain it wasn't any way near what they claim and I truly have nothing other than their neglect in leaving such young children alone and their media neediness against them, so far.
Although I must admit the fund has nauseated me from day 1.
Maddie's case
Volunteers are doing searches in Morocco
Two hundred English volunteers linked to the group Helping to Find Madeleine are exploring the rural areas of Morocco in search of the child who disappeared in May in Praia da Luz
Taking advantage of the Christmas holidays, the group has distributed posters - more than ten thousand - in shops, restaurants and other public places.
"It has become apparent e-mail is great within larger towns and cities, but there are still a lot of people who do not have Madeleine's picture or the phone contact details to report any sightings or information", said a spokesman of the group, which is independent from the fund managed by the McCanns, to the newspaper This is Leicestershire.
Witnesses against MURAT
Two British sisters who spent their holidays at Praia da Luz in May ensured during an interview to the British police that they have seen Robert Murat near the Ocean Club on the night of the disappearance. Jayne Jensen and Annie Wiltshire, 54 and 52 years, revealed that the Briton had a "strange" behavior that night and the following day. The press reports that there are now nine [or eight] people who ensure to have seen Murat at the Ocean Club on the night of May 3.
I've just read that the breaking news on Portugese local radio is that a child's body has been found in a remote farm building in a rural area; I just wondered if you have heard anything about this?
I had a friend visiting yesterday and I decided to ask her in a little more detail what she thought about the case, bear in mind that she is not normally interested in discussing news stories in any great detail. I was amazed how little she'd understood about how important this case is not just in it's own right but also in terms of demonstrating media, political and celebrity spin/manipul,ation.
This case demonstrates all that is bad and unjust in many western societies: unequally delivered justice, narcissicistic ambition & poor parenting supported by the mass media in all it's forms, racism and outright prejudice of unfamiliar legal systems and processes, blaming the 'bogeyman' in this case swarthy foreign types with unhealthy obsessions rather than facing the McElephants in the corner, Money, Money, Money - self preservation of neglectful parents applauded & supported by high profilers from religious, literary, sport, business and politics; and especially downright bare-faced lying including manipulating witnesses to blame the most likely looking suspect close to hand.
Needless to say my friend was aghast and asked whether I thought this was the tip of the iceberg not only with this case but with others, I had to say that '...sadly I believe that it is.'
It's important to take a great interest in the world around you and what shapes it without seeking gain for oneself. If you don't know about it you can't comment on it or change it with real efficacy.
Peace as always,
Liz
"No one knows, either, whether the Portuguese authorities, faced with a barrage of criticism from the British media, went on the defensive, and for this reason backed its woeful team for far too long before eventually dismissing it. Even so, it took evidence that members of the investigative team were under investigation themselves, amid accusations that they had beaten a false confession of murder from a Portuguese mother whose child had died, before this happened.
It had long been clear anyway that the officers had been briefing the Portuguese media against the McCanns, of whose own guilt they seemed, at times, to be entirely convinced. Many of these slurs, all of which have turned out to be inaccurate, were gleefully reproduced in the British press, however absurd, sensational or cruel they were. One thing is certainly known about this case; that the behaviour of the media, from its initial flurry of useless sentiment and empty self-righteousness, to its eventual vortex of cruelty, unrestrained gossip-peddling and indiscriminate supposition, has shown itself to be a frightening and pitiless mill. The course of this tale, as told in the press, has been godless – in the sense of its having no morality. Little or no care for what it is grinding, or who, or how, has been on display."
1) Amaral was not dismissed for incompetence, corruption or for the theory that the McCanns were involved but for speaking to the press when he had been told not to and for complaining that the British police were giving credibility to a bogus story about a Ocean Club employee.
2) The accusations made in the press about the MacCanns were not 'slurs' and have not been disproved.
The Independent should take a long hard look at itself. If it is going to criticise the media generally then it should put its own house in order first.
During the inquiry and the process of Joana Cipriano, João Cipriano said I have done nothing wrong I just killed her.
This is why some detectives thought that Joana Cipriano could have been sexually abused.
Paulo Cristovão, one of the detectives of this inquiry, asked them more than 15 times where they put the body of Joana. They gave different whereabouts but her body has never been found.
What surprises me is the fact that the journalist admits that Joana Cipriano is dead. As a British journalist that is clearly proMcCann, he should have said: no body, no crime!
This paper is just a pure product of the wrong pro-McCann campaign that consists in discrediting the Portuguese Authorities. This is not a pro-Madeleine McCann campaign and this article is not a pro-Madeleine McCann article. This bashing attitude will not help to find Madeleine and it would not help to clarify what happen to her.
The people who claim to have seen Murat all appear to have some connection with the McCann party though from my understanding. The latest two women were in the same tennis group as Gerry and reported their claim to Metado defectives... more spin against Murat? Who knows for sure. This was reported in the Mirror p.9 today.
http://tinyurl.com/227rvo
DJ Shifty has a firm alibi for the 3 May. So that's that little distraction out of the way.
"The one... (laughs) the slight positive that has come out of this is there is so much rumor of what did and didn't happen if your reading the newspapers or watching TV, it is really quite difficult to know what is true or not true."
I had never seen this interview. Is there an innocent reason why he would feel this way, because it seems so damning to me? http://tinyurl.com/ytrnw6
Glad to see you haven't left us ARM! Jose thanks for the links, I was waiting to be able to view it and it was very interesting.
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
List of British pedophiles present in Portugal, disclosed after the disappearance of Maddie.
"We did not wait for this list to check the possibility of an abduction by a pedophile. What I don't understand is why their government waited for the disappearance of a British child to inform us of the identity of their citizens present in Portugal that are already known for pedophile activity", says an inspector of the Portuguese Judicial Police contacted by SOS Madeleine.
The latest news in the UK were reporting a list of 52 pedophiles of British persons with a connection to Portugal, that the police had received from the CEOP - Child Exploitation and Online Protection Center. In this list, there is a suspect that the police has been unable to locate until today.
"We have checked every known suspects for pedophilia activity that may have visited Praia da Luz at the time of the disappearance," says an inspector of the Judicial Police (PJ), stressing that "the first line of the inquiry that we have followed was the kidnapping. It was only after the arrival of the English team, in July, that things have changed".
"It's true that since the beginning, we have a lot of doubts about the involvement of the parents and not just because of their lack of cooperation, but it was the British police who have strengthened the line of the investigation that led us to consider the McCanns as official suspects", says the same source.
Several hundreds of potential suspects were interviewed and their alibis checked. This has been done in Portugal but also in other countries of Europe. The excellent collaboration between the Portuguese police and their European colleagues did permit to check several tourists that have been in the Algarve when Madeleine vanished. A special attention has been given to the citizens of British origin, given the important community residing in the Algarve region, but also in the other side of the border in Spain where the police has kept under surveillance for several months a Briton with a past marked by pedophilia activity.
Madeleine who was three years old at the time of her disappearance, does not match the profile of the child searched by pedophiles in general, as confirmed by Professor David Barclay, a British expert who said that the abduction for sexual purposes occurred generally with a child of eight, nine or ten years. A view shared by several other Portuguese experts but it did not prevent the Judicial Police to consider the trail of an abduction by a pedophile.
Rachel before Madeleine
Before the disappearance of Madeleine, Rachael Charles is the other only known case of a British child disappeared in the Algarve. Rachel, 10 years, lived with her mother and her stepfather in Albufeira. She vanished in November 1990. Two days after her disappearance, her mother, Carol Charles, received a phone call in English with a request for a ransom of 51 million escudos.
Three days after her disappearance, Rachel has been found dead. She had been strangled and her body abandoned in the middle of a pine forest.
After several weeks of investigation, a British man, Michael Cook has been arrested by the PJ. He was a friend of the family who took advantage from this fact to convince Rachel to enter into his car. The man had even participated to the searches next to the parents of the girl. Confronted with the testimony of the gardener of the family, Michael Cook has been tried and sentenced to 19 years of imprisonment. Despite an appeal to justice, the second court upheld the sentence.
Already at that time, British politics did mark their presence in the case: Robert Spink, a member of the House of Commons of the British Parliament did intervene to criticize the Portuguese authorities. Contacted by a Portuguese newspaper, just after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, the deputy says recalling the incident: "I was convinced that he was guilty, but I had an obligation to ensure that Michael Cook would have a fair trial", said Robert Spink. After a few years in prison and after the British intervention, the murderer has been released and he returned to the United Kingdom.
Yesterday, Sky News Online announced that the PJ was looking for a bag used to transport tennis-rackets where Maddie could have been put by an alleged British pedophile. Judicial sources eared by the 24Horas did not confirm this theory and they ensured that the line of the investigation is the same. That is: The McCanns and Robert Murat are still the main suspects.
Sky News adds that a British pedophile is suspected of having abducted Maddie. The PJ did not confirm the information and denies the existence of suspicions concerning an individual who allegedly could have abused a 12 years old child in the Algarve in 2005 and whose whereabouts are unknown, as it has been reported yesterday by Sky News.
Método 3 "told the couple yesterday that they have had 347 calls to their hotline" since their appeal last week. A friend adds that it was a "flood of calls"!
I am glad to read that the Método 3 hotline is no more out of order so we will have again new false leads that would be reported as "crucial" or significant in the press.
">never give up hope of finding their missing daughter.
What is sure is that Madeleine will not have the thousands of toys that people have donated to her.
Her toys were parceled up and sent to needy youngsters in Eastern Europe, reports the Daily Mirror.
"It would have been a shame if the toys had gone to waste. They've helped brighten the Christmas of a child who might have nothing.", said a family friend yesterday.
So even the family friends were sure that Madeleine will not come home today. Even Kate and Gerry McCann have sent cuddly toys left for Madeleine to orphans.
"Everyone who left something for Madeleine will now know" that Madeleine will never get her presents.
However "it has helped brighten the Christmas of a child who might otherwise have nothing".
He writes also: "It is understood that it was evidence produced using the technique which convinced the Portuguese police of the McCanns’ guilt over Madeleine’s disappearance".
It seems to me that the Portuguese experts of the INML, leaded by Francisco Corte-Real, have perfomed their own DNA test and they didn't use the LCN testing technique which is available in UK. It's the Portuguese analysis that have shown a DNA match of 15 markers over 19 with a sample collected on the boot of the Renault Scénic. So far, there is no official statement about the tests performed by the FSS. However, it is true that it has been reported that the FSS had performed DNA tests using the LCN testing technique.
Clarence Mitchell in the same article said "Officially we have never been told that Low Copy Number analysis has been used.
“Everyone talks about it but we have never officially been informed by the police that this particular sort of DNA testing has been used.”
But the most curious are the statements of "McCanns’ supporters" saying that "It is ridiculous to form a case against someone using evidence that is fundamentally flawed. The case against Kate and Gerry should be dropped at once".
The DNA tests are just used to identify persons. It's impossible to say that a person is guilty or innocent only considering DNA tests.
Missing bag of Maddie's father is the trail of the inquiry
The Judicial Police (PJ) is searching for months of blue tennis bag big enough to carry a small child that belonged to the father of Madeleine McCann. The news has ben reported yesterday by Sky News that adds that Gerry McCann ensured to the detectives at that time that it is has been stolen.
Remember that as the DN as reported five days after the disappearance of Madeleine, the Maritime Police led out searches between Lagos and Burgau, both at sea and on rocks and caves searching for the body of the toddler. Fishermen and divers were alerted at that time of the possibility of finding a bag "containing a body or evidence".
On the other hand, there is sill the necessity to eliminate as suspect a man that is in a list delivered by the British Police to the PJ with information about 52 British pedophiles that were in the Algarve when the toddler has been taken. Meanwhile, according to the British press, the Crown Prosecution Service (the equivalent of the Ministério Público) has ordered a new study on the value of the technique used in the Low Copy Number (LCN) method that amplifies small tiny samples of DNA in the Laboratory of Forensic Science Service in Birmingham in the aim to determine the profile of the suspects, victims or witnesses even where there is only a small quantity of biological material. The emphasis of the suspension of the LCN will raise discussion about mediatic cases. The doubts on the analytical method have been constant among the British scientific community and even the judge of a process relative to the suspected author of a bomb attack in Ireland nine years ago that had injured killed tenths of persons, has questioned the reliability of the LCN. This means that the forensic tests performed to the blood vestiges, hair, bodily fluids detected in the apartment and in the car rented by the McCanns in Praia da Luz are in danger to shoot down even before they are completed.
What do you think, why do they make it public before they come to interview the Tapas 9 again?
The searches of the maritime authorities were made by their own initiative. It's not said that the bag is blue and it is belonging to Gerry McCann.
We have to wait for the comments of the Portuguese Police concerning the blue bag. I suspect that it's just journalistic misinformation.
As to the secrecy laws, the Judicial Police can do synthetic reports concerning their activities to the press, they can give information as long as it helps for the establishment of the truth and with the agreement of the officers responsible of the inquiry.
It is interesting that all this was kept so hush and that Kate mentioned a bag yet again the fact the DNA results were inconclusive still no proof either way.
If as alledged by SKY news there is 1 british pedophile who the police haven't eliminated with links to the Algarve is it too barbaric of me to say name him, why protect him. This does infuriate me, the same with the two boys who murdered James Bulger (for those who don't know the case he was a 3 or 4 year old boy who was brutally murdered by two 10 year olds. These boys are now 21 and have been released from prison and given protection forever, no one shall ever know who they are). Why in this country and indeed in our world do we seem to forget it is the innocent we should protect!!!!!!!!!!!
Anyway on that note as Santa may already have visited some of you I hope he is kind and I wish you all a lovely time this Christmas, may all your dreams and wishes come true in 2008 and thank you to Steve for this site and to the rest for the interesting posts. I know we have had people like Nancy and BUT I have never felt "bullied" by the fact I feel they are innocent until proven otherwise.
Anyway for now I am off to start celebrating, Joyeux Noel.
In terms of the 1 British pedophile I believe what is being said is that 52 have been eliminated from the enquiry but one is still being looked at. In other words they have not established an alibi which puts him somewhere other than PDL.
But I am mindful of the following which summarises the up and down emotions for me( so far) :
Andrea: ........""......Speculation without evidence does not belong here...."".....
John: ...""..I don't know what to think...""....
Chanel: .""..But hasn't everything about this case been baffling?...""...
Lynn:...""..You just simply cannot believe a word written by the press ..yet we all do sometime ...""..
Best wishes for the season and all and G'day.
Gem
Australia
She told a Spanish magazine: "If we knew where she was, do you think we would wait until Christmas to find the girl?"
Metodo 3 admits to never having known where Maddie was
"If we knew where she is, do you think we would have waited until christmas to find her?"
The statement is from Marita Fernandez, the mother of Francisco Marco, director of Metodo3, also the founder and administrator of the private detective agency which claimed, until yesterday, to anyone that would listen, to know the whereabouts of Madeleine and who kidnapped her.
After several months of publicity campaigning, the Barcelona agency admitting finally that they never knew where the little British girl was, has nevertheless continued to recieve around 70,000 euros a month from the Find Madeleine fund.
Francisco Marco had, since the beginning of their contract, claimed to have a 100% success rate of finding missing children, but, an internal source from the agency, confirms that Metodo 3 has never tried to find a child since the agency existed: "missing people has never been our area of expertise. The only person that we have found was the spy Paesa and that was a stroke of luck for we were investigating a case of fraud and it turned out that the guilty party was a neice of Paesa".
Francisco Marco, director of the agency, announced at the beginning of the month, that he would return Madeleine to her family in time for Christmas.
Metodo 3's move to new luxury offices in Barcelona, raises questions as to how the agency has spent the 430,000 euros from the 6 month contract. The shocking claims of their director and the lack of obvious results, are some of the reasons that people close to the Mccanns have confirmed that the work of the Spanish detectives will be stopped in March, date when the contract with the couple is terminated.
The McCanns' couple re-ask for help to find their daughter
The McCanns have recorded a Christmas video for Maddie
The McCanns have recorded a Christmas video at their home at Rothley, in England, in which they send a message to their daughter Madeleine, vanished May 3 in Praia da Luz (Algarve) and where they called for her return.
Talking to the little girl, Gerry and Kate underline that "our only Christmas wish is for you to be back with us again", asking to the toddler to be "brave".
"Madeleine it’s Mummy and Daddy here. Just know how much we love you, Madeleine.
We all miss you so much. We’re doing everything we can, Madeleine, to find you", continue the parents that re-ask help to find so they can be all together with the little girl.
"At this time of year, when so many families are coming together we beg you to help us be reunited with Madeleine", say the McCanns and adding that it would "be the hardest Christmas imaginable" and they ask to any person who knows something about her daughter to put an end to their "despair and anguish".
In the McCann case, the LCN technique has not given a different result from the other DNA testing technique, according to what has been reported in the press. For the inquiry, the LCN technique has not given anything new.
That could raise discussions among DNA experts if the results obtained with the LCN technique were different. But it's not the case. So I don't think that it could have an implication.
I was saddened yet heartened by people sending gifts to the twins and for Madeleine, puts in perspective how heart breaking this case truly is.
Financiers of the fund dissatisfied with the Spanish agency
McCanns does not want to renew their contract with Método 3
The McCanns seems to be less disposed to renew their contract with Método 3. The private eye agency contract, that links them to the McCanns, will end in March 2008 and until now they haven't presented any evidence that support the theory that the toddler, vanished May 3 in Praia da Luz, is alive.
As it has been reported yesterday in the British press, the private donors who have been supporting the 'Find Madeleine' Fund are not satisfied with the results of the work of the Spanish agency. According to Sky News Online, the company presided by Francisco Marco is asking 70 mil euros (£50,000) per month to the McCanns. "The group has not yet produced any evidence to back their claims that they know who took the girl", is is reported in Sky News Online.
Sky News Online went to Barcelona, the city of Método 3 headquarters. The agency has moved to his new office located in a luxury building where there is also a gay sauna.
Again according to Sky News, the McCanns are aware that Método 3 has changed their office.
Meanwhile, the British press said yesterday that the Judicial Police is still performing a meticulous job in analyzing the seized records of thousands of phone calls that have been made in Praia da Luz in the night when the little Maddie vanished.
The Daily Mail said that more than a thousand of people, tourists and residents in Praia da Luz, are being interviewed by the detectives who are particularly interested in the period between 21:30 and 22:00 on May 3 when the toddler would have allegedly disappeared.
John, I read a while ago that the McCanns didn t choose M3, it was one of their millionaires who knew the agency and wanted to promote them . I just can t remember where I found it.
A few days ago the newspapers in Germany published the results of a clinical study about the increased frequency of cancer of children growing up near atomic plants.
It seems so corrupt of Gerry McCann to be the medical advisor on a commitee which affirms exactly the opposite in order to allow some people to make even more money....
John and Andrea, will M3 make a new announcement soon if Maddy is not returned in time for Christmas?
Gem - no more flagellation for you as you appear to enjoying it too much.
What is M3's new news going to be do you think?
As to why we are so obsessed. Well there is perhaps an astrological explanation for me and maybe for you all as well. One astrologer who has written about the case wrote to me saying: "M Mccann - the reason you are obsessed - and me too, more than most - is because her Pluto has tr to 23 Sag".
I have venus conjunct jupiter at 23º sagittarius. (If that doesn't get Stanley out of the woodwork, I don't know what will). Pluto/scorpio is linked to taboos, detection, crime, the underworld... venus, ruler of libra is about justice and so is jupiter, ruler of sagittarius (the law).
Our Steve is a triple scorpio hence this blog. Scorpios have no fear and are willing to confront the dark side, examine the underbelly and like to get to the root of the matter.
Ciao.
It's not clear if Método 3 has been hired by Brian Kennedy or the McCanns. What is sure is that the Find Madeleine Fund is giving £50,000 to pay Método 3 according to Clarence Mitchell.
By abena bailey
The Bull pub in Hemel Hempstead, which raised more than £1,500 towards the fund for missing toddler Madeleine McCann, has now decided to donate the money to Iraq soldiers instead.
Pub landlord Ricky Hampton made the decision after the parents of the four-year-old, who went missing in Portugal six months ago, became suspects in the police investigation.
The £1,570 total is now earmarked for Help For Heroes.
Mr Hampton explained: "We chose the charity because I served in Iraq during the war and I want to support my fellow soldiers because they don't get enough help from the Government.
"Once we find what's happening with the Madeleine McCann case we will be able to decide whether to make a donation."
Mr Hampton confirmed that a charity football match, again originally in support of the Find Madeleine Fund, will go ahead and the money raised will go to the pub's new chosen charity.
Mr Hampton is now busy trying to persuade celebrities to play against the pub team and if HeraldExpress readers would like to play, they can contact him on 01442 268912, or find out more about Help For Heroes at www.helpforheroes.org.uk
Since Madeleine's parents Kate and Gerry McCann were named official suspects, they have not used money from the Find Madeleine Fund, but the rate of donations to help find their daughter has slowed.
The current amount of £1,095,223.50, published on the Find Madeleine website, shows that less than £100,000 has been donated since July, when the amount stood at £1million.
I'm not convinced this thing is working properly - I have to put my email in everytime and the button says anonymous - but my name comes up.
All the points figures are wring anyway - just add them up. Mine added up to 43 when added comment by comment at the sametime there were 16 on my profile page and 18 when you click on my photo!
I think the arrows disappear when its a reply .
Spanish hotline out of action
The Metodo 3 hotline, set up by the private detectives company hired by the McCann, to receive information from potential witnesses, has been out of service in the last days. Several attempts to dial the number had no result and Clarence Mitchell, contacted by phone, confirmed that the contract with Metodo 3 wasn't cancelled and admitted that the difficulties in getting somebody to answer the hotline could be due to the fact that Metodo 3 has changed his offices, recently. On the last message posted at the official site of Madeleine, Gerry appealed again to witnesses to contact the Spanish hotline: “We again appeal to anyone who may have any information that might be relevant to contact your local police or our private investigators on +34. 902. 300 213 if they have any information which might be relevant.”
- These days it was rare for Madeleine to wake up at all once she was in bed. If she did, she’d normally wander into her parents’ bed, whether they were there or not. At home in Rothley, sometime earlier, they had begun a star chart for Madeleine staying in her own bed. The chart, still on display in the kitchen, was full of stars.
- That night their group ordered six bottles in total and two were still untouched on the table at 10pm. No more than half a bottle of wine each. The Portuguese magazine Sol reported that the group had drunk 14 bottles. Another Portuguese journalist told me a local GNR (national republican guard) police officer had described one of the group as being so drunk later that evening, they could barely stand.
- Gerry paused over Madeleine, who – a typical doctor’s observation, this – was lying almost in “the recovery position” with Cuddle Cat,
- Her daughter fine, Jane returned to the table. At 9.30, Kate got up to make the next check on her children, but Matt Oldfield was checking too, as was Russell O’Brien, and Matt offered to do Kate’s check for her, which she accepted. Gerry teased that she would not be excused her turn at the next check.
- Russell O’Brien checked his own daughter at 9.30 and found she had been sick. Jane returned to the apartment to be with her daughter, and Russell went back to the table. Russell would later fall under suspicion too, because of those few minutes he spent away from the table.
- The twins slept on like logs, just as they always did at home, though even their parents were fleetingly worried – had they been sedated by an abductor? – that they should be quite so comatose.
- During Kate’s interviews with the PJ in September, just before she was declared an arguido, she was separated from her lawyer, and he was presented with a long list of factors pointing to her guilt, including entries from her entirely innocuous diary and a passage they believed she had marked in a Bible (which in fact had been given to her and marked by the original owner).
- The PJ also told the lawyer there was a 100% DNA match with Madeleine in the car and showed him a document that appeared to prove it. Possibly, this was the document showing Madeleine’s control sample of DNA. The McCanns feared even their own lawyer thought they were guilty. Kate was asked by the PJ to explain the dog alerts by her car. “You’re the police,” she said. “You tell me.” Kate asked the PJ: “Are you trying to destroy our family altogether?”
- Gerry was asked the same questions the next day but could not answer. (Sometime earlier a Leicestershire officer had said to him, just stick to what you know.) Why did the dogs only alert next to material belonging to the McCanns? The officer was brandishing the dog-handler’s report. And then: “Your daughter’s DNA, your daughter Madeleine McCann, how do you explain that?” “Show me that report,” Gerry asked. “No. This is the report that matters – with the dog.” Of course, they could not produce a DNA match because there wasn’t one.
If indeed the PJ used interview techniques which involved bluffing that the evidence was stronger than it was ... well it seems unprofessional but on the other hand could be legitimate in the circumstances if the evidence is very strong and they want to find her body. Reading stuff like this depends so much on your basic position. If you are a McCann believer it reads as quiet disgraceful and that they have answers to all the little doubts. But if you are sceptical it doesn't take much to start to pull it to pieces. In the end it is almost because these kinds of articles are written that makes me doubt. Genuinely grieving parents would it seems to me not need or even be able to get this sort of thing written - but what do I know.
"Kate was to go to the nearby town of Portimao the next day, Thursday, September 6, to be questioned by detectives from the Policia Judiciaria (PJ). It would be Gerry’s turn the day after. For the media this would be a shocking new twist to the story – but not for the McCanns: the PJ had told them four weeks earlier they were going to be subjected to formal interviews and the McCanns had stayed on, instead of going home at the end of August as originally planned, waiting for the interviews to take place. Waiting. Waiting."
So now the interviews were not a shock and far from vowing to stay in Portugal till Madeleine was found they were planning to go home at the end of August. i.e. they did not run away when made arguidos but just went on with their original plans. This is a new slant to me.
I'd also like to say I really like this new format. Obviously it will take some time to get used to it for some...
I noticed on the meredith kerchner thread which I dip into from time to time if I can bothered to wade through a certain posters' posts, that many of the commentators have negative points!
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee154/astrom...
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee154/astrom...
Having said all that I'm insanely pleased at all my points!
A source close to the McCanns said: "Gerry saw it on the tape. Vehicles were lined up in an underground car park. Gerry says the dog went up to the Scenic, sniffed around it and went to head off. But he says he watched the dog brought back to the vehicle and finally it reacts around the boot area.Gerry was open-mouthed when he saw it. He feels the dog was manoeuvred into a position where it could react. To Gerry it looked like the dog was being encouraged to react in certain places of relevance."
But this was British police wasn't it?
http://www.southyorks.police.uk/kidzone/dogdiar...
This article in the Daily Mail is just recycling old info. The weird think is that they report an hypothetical reaction of Gerry McCann according to an unnamed source closed to the McCanns.
The article doesn't say when and where Gerrry has seen the video. Everybody has seen documentaries showing this dogs in action in a Renault Scénic. It's not a secret for the inquiry since these images are public.
Nevertheless, Gerry McCann does not show the same prudence as his lawyer , Rogério Alves who respects in the letter the secret of justice.
I think Gerry is just looking for something to be 'furious' about. This has been out in the public domain for so long I'm surprised he hasn't picked up on it before but perhaps like those commenting he finds himself in hiatus and wants to keep the kettle boiling?
Liz
And only then did she properly associate bundleman carrying a child with pink pyjamas with Maddie.
I find that odd too. Surely one of your first questions would be "What was she wearing?" when you did the initial search. Surely pink and white pyjamas would have been what everybody was looking out for? Easier to see in the dark, from a distance etc...
Way back when - this point about JT not mentioning Egg/Bundle/Child carrying man - was my biggest bug bear about JT. Reports about when she first mentioned him have been blurred IMO over the last couple of months as the story re: Panorama unfolded. But I'm as sure as you are that this was reported very differently early on with statements supposedly from JT saying 'I thought nothing of it at the time' which I found completely unbelievable, then later the added detail about the pinky aspect & lacy trim of the pjs?? And as you say - all in the poor light too, all we need now is to find out that JT wears glasses!
I also find it strange, I know this has been mentioned before, that Kate didn't immediately go to Jane Tanners apt next door when she saw the Madeleine was missing, and why Jane Tanner didn't hear her screaming from the balcony, after all everybody else did. From what I can gather, Jane Tanner is Kate's best friend. To the point that she attended Madeleine's birth. She, after Gerry, would be the first to be told no? Her casual attitude about this in her Panorama interview is what made me disbelieve her testimony.
I think what you'd do in this situation is put all the kids together in one apartment with one adult and all go searching for Madeleine as obviously this group of adults would know her best visually.
I suppose Kate Mccann would say, well I knew immediately that Madeleine was abducted due to the state of the apt. However we have received differing reports about this: Mark Warners' PR suggests that their initial thoughts were that Madeleine wandered off, some reports say that the apt was a mess, turned upside down in the search for Madeleine, the recent book suggests that it was immaculate and didn't look as if children were staying there.
Now according to this latest report, Gerry wasn't playing a third game of tennis that day...
I see what you mean re: clothing & recognition - and I agree if she truly saw those pjs why in god's name didn't she say so at the time??
Re: When Kate called out... the whole JT statement has me baffled on this point as well, in the latest broadsheet news stories JT is supposed to have returned to the Tapas Bar after the sighting of bundleman and after sorting out the problem at her and O'Bs appt. with their daughter and then returned to the appt. by 'tennish' when she was called upon, so she was at the tapas for 15 mins tops then? By her own statements this is improbable if you take the walking to and fro into account.
Re: the appt. it could not have been immaculate when the PJ arrived and allowed K & G to pick up what they needed immediatley - I can't believe the twins were still there when PJ arrived, but if they were - place them elsewhere etc. it would have been 'a mess of DNA & evidence' for any police force to encounter, but I believe the PJ then sealed the appt. Later K & G must have been allowed to collect the rest of their belongings and did what most of us would do i.e. leave the place as you found it. That would allow for the difference in statements re: the appt. but I do also believe that the McC's don't allow for 'mess' generally and Kate has always struck me as a 'cushion alligner' (nothing wrong there ordinarily but odd in circs. and more especially on holiday with toddlers).
I'm really grateful to Jose particularly who is keeping this thing on its feet. But, and I'm not really sure why, I'm here till the bitter end (God willing) mainly because I want to know what happened and I would like to see justice for Madeleine.
I also think we should stay here because otherwise we will get totally confused. I'm not sure why Steve opened two threads.
But I think if you hadn't followed the case through all it's meanderings you would be very moved by it. Or not?
What do others think?
the whole thing is so unreal - it must be Clarence s spin! Even people who have not followed the case during the last months must think - why do still they act as if Madeleine was alive after 8 months being in the hands of...?
From time to time the hoax theory, an abduction planned by them and their friends, seems right. But I don t think she is still alive, maybe planned abduction and then something went wrong, so her death changed the whole thought-out scenario. Of course this is speculation without any evidence and does not really belong here.
The reduction of your points must be due to something not working correctly! I noticed at one time all your comments received 0 points. But they were totally objective , with no reason for anyone to not accept your statements. It is the system ,not you!
By the way, I was downgraded immedeately after my emotional statement that I wanted the haloscan back . I felt censored at that time...
KATE and Gerry McCann may have to apply to the European Court of Human Rights to clear their names, legal sources said last night.
The couple believe they are likely to remain official suspects for many years, making it difficult for them to begin rebuilding their lives.
Despite a lack of progress in the police investigation and little solid evidence, it is believed that the Portuguese authorities will not lift the McCanns’ “arguido” status in the coming months.
It raises the prospect of a protracted legal battle through the Portuguese courts, which could eventually end in the human rights court.
Lawyers representing Kate and Gerry, who were declared suspects in September – four months after Madeleine disappeared – will attempt to clear their names officially in the New Year.
But should that fail, they are prepared for a lengthy and bitter legal battle.
McCanns may ask media to pay
The parents of Madeleine McCann may ask the media to pay for interviews and unreleased footage of their daughter. Nearly half the £1.2m given to Madeleine’s Fund has gone on advertising and to pay £50,000 a month to the detective agency leading the search.
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I can't wait for John' response on this one...shit....I wish for Stanley's & Reasonable Man's, Chanel, Billie, etc..... Maggie comeback for this one. What does everyone think...?
And ever since Madeleine disappeared on May 3, police have been looking for a blue tennis bag that went missing around that time. The bag - big enough to carry a small child - belonged to her father Gerry McCann, who had been playing tennis at the complex that afternoon.
The Madeleine McCann Mystery is being shown on Christmas Eve at 7.30pm on Sky Digital Channel 501 and Freeview Channel 82.
Detectives think the hold-all could have been used to carry Madeleine as she was taken away, or even to transport the three-year-old's body.
It belonged to the girl's father but has not been seen since the night of May 3, according to a Sky News documentary due to be broadcast on Cristmas Eve.
Expert Tony Rogers, who reviews unsolved cases for British police and worked on the Soham investigation, said: "If it's a bag of a size that could be used to take a child away from the flat, that would be of great interest to the investigating officer."
But McCann family spokesman Clarence Mitchell flatly denied that Mr McCann had lost a bag during the family's holiday.
He said: "As far as Kate and Gerry are concerned, there is no missing tennis bag. They came back from holiday with everything except of course, tragically, Madeleine."
Mr McCann told friends yesterday that he did not take any tennis equipment to Praia da Luz, and did not own a blue tennis bag.
But Sky News stood by its story, which it said came from sources who had travelled to the resort after Madeleine's disappearance.
As I always said, I liked haloscan because it didn t allow such games.
In my opinion (yeah here we go) this is the biggest clue (if true) we have been given in a long time. If it is not true is it to rattle the other Tapas, making them wonder if it is true before questioning and would/could they become accomplices? Will JT change her story...again? To me this is huge, I wish I could see the Sky report...but I trust they will have it on-line.
from todays diaria de noticas
The Judicial Police (PJ) is searching for months for a blue tennis bag with sufficient size to carry a small child, which belonged to the father of Madeleine McCann. The news was advanced yesterday by the British television channel Sky News, which adds that Gerry McCann assured at the time to the investigators that the bag was "stolen".
And the article about the bag is also a paper of Martin Brunt! Martin Brunt has been a true supporter of the McCanns.
Sky News will diffuse a special program today about the McCann case. That story of the blue bag and the pedophile is probably an advertising promotion story to call the attention of the viewers.
Defamation: Christian Ridout can sue them
Metodo 3 is pursuing a false suspect
Although they failed all their promises to the McCanns, the Spanish detectives of the private eye agency, Método 3, are now pursuing the former DJ of a pub in Praia da Luz, Christian Ridout that has not been seen in the Algarve for two years and who "has nothing to do" with the disappearance of Madeleine, ensures a source closed to the Inquiry. "The experts are risking a trial for defamation and malicious falsehood".
The persecution of the detectives according to the Daily Mai is confirmed by the spokesman of the McCanns, Clarence Mitchell. The picture of the suspect "circulates throughout the international press" add our sources and the impact "in terms of image is very bad for someone already discarded" by the legitimate detectives of the case.
The Briton, 30 years old, worked in the pub Plough and Harrow but in 2005 he went by car to Spain - the Daily Mail reports that his VW Golf was given up at the Seville airport and Christian returned to England. But the suspicions of the detectives are justified by alleged messages "with obscene language" that the Briton should had sent for months to a 12 years old girl.
"He was suggesting he should pick her up from school", recalls the mother to the newspaper and he was also "suggesting the most disgusting sex acts". The woman, 42 years old, says that she had only discovered what was happening only after two months and she threatened him and then he fled. He has never been seen again in the Algarve but his family is still at Praia da Luz.
The day after the disappearance of Maddie, May 3, a man should have ask for Christian at the pub - two years later, "he could have been back" it has been reported in the Daily Mail yesterday. The CM knows that "this theory has been considered among others but it has been immediately rejected".
Interviews
The McCanns and their friends should be interviewed between January and February with their respective Letters Rogatory that would be sent by the Attorney General’s Office (PGR) to the British authorities at beginning of the new year.
He may have harassed a child in 2005
Christian Ridout, 30 years, may have sent obscene messages to a girl of 12 years in 2005. He left Praia da Luz two years ago but the detectives of the McCanns are pursuing him.
In the media I heard the video/audio (BBC)...Kate has now announced, she (anyway) admitted she didn't search) for Madeleine. Does that no raise a "hello"? There it is now on video in her own words and although ...does that make anyone feel better on this site, except sad, I am sure. But...it makes me feel totally angry about "3" and they continue to let this happen, dragging people though the mud, and who is responsible for letting this happen?. It also seems there is a tradition/damning that there is always seems to be a new siting or siting, when negative news hits the Mcs as my interpetation. Although if there was some kind of accident as I see as as very possibile, I have lost even more respect if people are perhaps willing to sit back for someone...anyone to take the rap? If this is the case...I have to think/say (unfortunately) "throw the book at that them". I feel so bad at thinking/saying that, but then I think of the all those ruined lives, fund that innocent people donated to in good faith etc.; blame should go, where blame lies ...(shit,... but they are digging the hole, for themselves it seems). But certainly there is a bigger injustice, here? Thankfully (regardless of religion) people care about this case from all over the world it appears; and are calling for justice for this little girl. This little girl's legacy will not just have an impact on the press but on law in both countries possibly, either on each own or together, as well as DNA policies. Hopefully these two country's respect will still be there or intact, as I truly trust they will be.
Kate and Gerry will remain suspects for six months
McCanns fear long judicial battle
According to the online edition of the British newspaper Leicester Mercury, the McCanns should continue with their suspect status for further six months if the judge grant to the Public Prosecution to extend the secrecy of justice that should end on January 3.
Kate and Gerry are fearing to face a protracted battle until June and they are already considering to take the case to the European Court of Human Rights.
According to the British press, the McCanns are still ignoring the reasons why they were made suspects and they are not allowed to make any comment on the case.
After postponing the secrecy of justice, the Judicial Police will thus have more time to re-interview the McCanns and their seven friends, who dinned together the day when Madeleine vanished, and also to continue the investigation.
The Lawyers of the British couple will not have access to the evidence existing against them and suggesting that Kate and Gerry are suspect of having transported and disposed of the cadaver of the little Madeleine McCann.
In the Daily Star, he said "although a lot of what has been written and said about them in Portugal has been rubbish, it is important the case is still news. Kate and Gerry’s view is that they can’t allow people to forget about Madeleine".
Concerning the suspects status of the McCanns, he said “Kate and Gerry’s lawyers are working very hard on that and will continue to do so".
In fact, their Portuguese lawyers are not at all working to lift their suspects status. They perfectly know that they will remain suspect until the end of the inquiry as Rogério Alves has already reported to the press. So it's just another lie.
He explained that the McCanns don't want to return to Portugal because they want to avoid "another media frenzy".
That's strange statements because during the last days all the rubbish frenzy that has been reported by the press was coming from the McCann team and their Spanish private eyes detectives, Método 3 and they have done nothing to avoid it.
I thought that the purpose of the rubbish reported by Método 3 in UK was to provide news because the McCanns don't want that people forget their daughter. So is it just another lie?
By Gerard Couzens 30/12/2007 Sunday Mirror
The mother of Robert Murat, suspect in the Madeleine McCann case, last night challenged h